The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V3

Shedite27 · 18-02-2022 11:26AM

Stafford's not a HOF'er for me, but he's probably got another 5/6 years that could add to that.

eagle eye · 18-02-2022 12:38PM

Matthew Stafford is twelfth all time in regular season passing yards and passing touchdowns, if he plays another three years he'll be in the top ten in both categories. It's also likely he makes top ten in those categories including playoff football.

I think any player who retires at top ten in those categories is well worthy to be in the hall.

Blut2 · 18-02-2022 12:46PM

Stafford should have left the Lions years ago. If he'd been playing for an in anyway decent team he'd almost certainly have made multiple deep playoff runs over the years. And his stats despite his Lions years are still up there with the best.

If he manages to have another good season or 3 (hes only just turned 34 last week, so could have 5+ years left in the league) I think he'll make it in.

Itssoeasy · 18-02-2022 12:50PM

No Mathew Stafford isn’t a HOFer as it stands on February 18th, 2022 at 12:43pm. I get that him getting out of that dump of a franchise the lions are winning a super bowl has people all warm and fuzzy but players aren’t voted on while playing. Do I think having won Super Bowls helps a player ? Yes. But no I shouldn’t replace a complete body of work. I mean if Super Bowls we’re that important than Dan Marino and Jim Kelly wouldn’t be the hall of fame which by any logic would be **** stupid. That’s one of my issues with the hall of fame.

The other is it’s selective moral stance on stuff that happened off the field. They didn’t put Marvin Harrison in first time due to some issue with a gun, yet they let that sorry excuse of a human being ray Lewis in, who lets not remember used god on the weekend of the ravens vs niners super bowl to show he was innocent.

Foxtrol · 18-02-2022 03:07PM

Stafford shouldn't even be in the discussion at this point - things might change but I don't see any argument standing up currently. Having said that there is a (what I continue to find weird) NFL groupthink of overvaluing QBs, overvaluing 'rings', and stats ignoring context so I understand where this rumblings is coming from.

On the stats, the game is basically a different sport now for QBs than it was in the past and it is so much easier to rack up every stat, due to style of systems, the protection QBs and WRs get, the sports science to allow them to play longer, the headset... the boost they have over QBs of the past is endless. Being top 10 in any stat doesn't mean you're HOF worthy - Stafford isn't a top 12 QB in history, Flacco isn't a top 20 QB in history, Dalton isn't a top 30 QB in history... There is a decent chance Cousins, Carr, and Tannehill will all be knocking around the top 10 in yards by the time they retire, and no even if they win a ring they shouldn't be in the conversation either.

It was an incredibly fine margin for the Rams to win last Sunday against a team they by far overmatched on a player vs player basis. I don't see how a win that his defense played a huge part in and closed out should suddenly vault Stafford into HOF discussion.

If you were never seen as one of the greatest in your position of your generation then you simply shouldn't be getting in. Stafford has time to change things but trying to make a case now seems very much like folks getting caught up in the moment. I also feel that unless Stafford wins a few his case is going to be tougher to make than now. Brady hoarding wins has meant few QBs had that on their list of accomplishments which will likely change in the future with wins spread out across several teams in the coming years - one or even two rings won't be seen as special as it is now in making a case when more players have that going for them.

The_Honeybadger · 19-02-2022 08:05PM

Brian Flores has been appointed senior defensive assistant / linebackers coach with the Steelers. Glad he got a job in the league after the recent controversy, even if it’s one he is significantly overqualified for.

Jolly Red Giant · 20-02-2022 11:38AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118660427#Comment_118660427

Deserves a job - but what make you think he is 'significantly overqualified' for it ?

Just because he was a HC doesn't mean that he is overqualified for a job as a positional coach - there are many former HCs who became position coaches. Flores has never been a DC - at the Pats he was a ST assistant, a defensive assistant, a safeties coach and then a linebackers coach (the same job he has got now - with a bump as a 'senior defensive assistant').

In my opinion he is exactly where he should be given his experience - and he could indeed turn out not to be great at that job given that BB controlled the defensive side of the ball at the Pats.

Christy42 · 20-02-2022 11:50AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662554#Comment_118662554

He had a lot of control in Miami over the defensive side of the ball during a time they had a pretty strong defense.

Foxtrol · 21-02-2022 04:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118662609#Comment_118662609

Yeah, normally for a HC to take a big step back to a position coach and not even be a coordinator they have to flame out as a HC - not come off back to back winning seasons and build up a defense that even the owner that fired him demanded the new coach maintain.

Jolly Red Giant · 22-02-2022 10:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118668601#Comment_118668601

Did I argue that the Miami defence didn't improve?

Improve it did - but it was still bang average last season - exactly in the middle of the pack.

But that is not the issue - the issue is that Flores was never a DC - he was a linebackers coach prior to becoming a HC (and a linebackers coach on a team where the HC controlled everything).

Do I think that Flores flamed out like so many other coaches from the BB tree - no - but I do think that he is a typical BB clone as HC and none of them have succeeded as HC.

In the last four years there hasn't been a single HC fired who subsequently got a job as a coordinator who wasn't previously a coordinator. Several have taken major demotions - Joe Judge (never a coordinator) is QB coach at the Pats - Matt Patricia (nominally DC at the Pats) is OL coach at the Pats - Adam Gase (remember him) is coaching as the offensive coordinator on a high-school team. Doug Marrone - who has been a coach for more than 20 years - has had two stints as a HC and has been a coordinator - is the OL coach at the Saints (after being OL coach at Alabama after being sacked by the Jags)

Of the HCs fired after last season -

Jon Gruden - no job (and will play out the remainder of his ten year contract)

Urban Meyer - no job (will probably end up back in the college ranks)

Vic Fangio - no job (was apparently offered the DC job by the Jags but supposedly turned it down because he thought he was being interviewed for the HC job)

Mike Zimmer - no job (will get a coordinator job somewhere eventually - thought he might end up as DC in Denver because of his connections to Paton - but the Broncos did a massive clear-out and have completely changed gear - and brought in Capers as a senior advisor)

Matt Nagy - no job (I suspect will end up as a positional coach somewhere evenutally)

Joe Judge - QB coach with the Pats

David Culley - no job (like Nagy - probably a positional coach somewhere)

Brian Flores - Senior defensive assistant and linebackers coach with the Steelers.

So - again - evidence that Flores is 'significantly over-qualified' for the job he now has ?

I will say that Flores could not have landed in a better spot - and the fact that he chose to go to the Steelers shows a lot of maturity on his part. He had 12 years coaching under the Patriot Way in a coaching system/tree that has produced zero candidates capable of being HCs. Mike Tomlin is a great NFL HC and he is the polar opposite of Belichick in his approach to being a HC. As long as Flores does not do what most of the failed Patriot Way coaches do and fly back to daddy - then he has the potential to broaden his coaching experience and possibly return in the future as a successful HC. If he does then it would be a massive indictment of how BB uses his coaches at NE.

None of this takes away from the fact that there is systemic racism and misogyny in the NFL - there will be some token moves like Goodell suggesting that someone from a minority background should buy the Broncos (Byron Allen is reputed to be intending to put in a bid - but he has nowhere near the $4billion it will cost) - nothing will really change as the rich and powerful who run the NFL don't give a sh*t about anything except making money.

Foxtrol · 22-02-2022 04:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118671862#Comment_118671862

Apples and oranges there with your comparison - how many of those coaches you looked at in the last 4 years have been fired after back to back winning seasons?

There is significant difference between a non-coordinator being hired as HC and failing on the field and getting fired another being hired as HC and being a relative success on the field and getting fired. The latter shows that they are well qualified to move into a coordinator role. Flores was however smart to take whatever job he could get in an unfortunate environment where we saw from Kaepernick how easily being away from the game will be used as a stick to beat you with.

Agree that Byron Allen is hardly a shining light of hope if he became an owner, he already partners with Sinclair media to make money so would have no problems with going along with whatever the other owners wanted.

Jolly Red Giant · 22-02-2022 07:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118673951#Comment_118673951

Being a HC is a different skill set from being a coordinator - and Flores has never been a coordinator. Furthermore - he has zero coaching experience outside of being a BB underling. Whatever he did in Miami - and while the results were decent there was clearly serious issues behind the scenes - that does not automatically make him suitable for a DC position. On top of that - most coordinator positions are filled based on relationships. I thought there was a chance he could get the DC job either with the Giants or the Raiders - but Daboll went with Wink Martindale (good choice imo) and McDisaster dipped back into the Pats coahcing history to get Graham (probably realised he couldn't fit Flores' ego alongside his own in the building).

The Steelers job is where Flores is at - its a good job for him and it fits with his experience - and if he gets away from the BB tree then he has a chance to get a second go and might be successful.

eagle eye · 22-02-2022 07:55PM

Can we get a new thread for issues about race? Like this thread has always been a fun thread. Now it's becoming dreary and pedantic.

Foxtrol · 22-02-2022 08:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675000#Comment_118675000

I do not understand the preoccupation with him never being a coordinator before - by that logic no coordinator could ever be hired if they weren't a coordinator previously, no HC should be hired if they weren't a HC before... The DC role has a lot closer relationship to being a HC than being a position coach - the route where most new DCs come from.

Now I fully agree with you regarding relationships but the point the OP made is that Flores is over qualified. There are many people out there who are much more qualified but do not get a job because another candidate is better at networking. This is a key problem with the NFL too, especially when it is a mostly old white man network you have to break into. This excuse however has nothing to do with Flores' qualification.

We're going around in circles on this so might as well leave it.

The_Honeybadger · 23-02-2022 12:25AM

To qualify my initial comment, I think most people were surprised that Flores was fired. He arguably overachieved in Miami given the roster he had, either way he was a long long way from a disaster. There was certainly thing going on behind the scenes, some of which we know about and other things that we don’t, but overall I think he did a good job.

As a Steeler fan I am glad he is on board and I look forward to seeing what he can bring. They traded up for linebacker Devin Bush a few years ago and he had a decent first year but he was a total disaster last year after coming back from an ACL tear. He was a very highly rated prospect, maybe Flores can get him back on track as his position coach.

Jolly Red Giant · 23-02-2022 10:21AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118675160#Comment_118675160

Yes we are going around in circles a bit -

I will leave it with this - I don't have any preoccupation with Flores at all or the fact that he has never been a coordinator. I reponded to the claim by Honeybadger that he was 'significantly overqualified' for the job he got with the Steelers - I don't think he is - in fact I think he got a job right in line with his experience of being a BB clone, never having coached anywhere else and never been a DC.

As I pointed out and as you agree with - most of the jobs down the line from the HC are made because of relationships - and the only relationships that Flores has is with the BB tree.

To demonstrate - Hackett is HC of the Broncos - Outten as OC worked with Hackett in GB - Klint Kubiak has clear Denver connections and work with Paton in Minnesota - OL coach Barry worked in GB - his assistant was under Kubiak in Minnesota - RB coach worked with Hackett at the Bills and Jags - the new DC Ejiro Evero was in high school with Hackett - the DL coach worked with Evero at the Rams - the DB coach came from GB - the ST coordinator Stukes came from the Rams - new LB coach worked with Evero at SF under Fangio etc etc - Dom Capers is being brought in as a defensive advisor (Capers worked with Evero when at GB) and the word is that Gary Kubiak could be back in a similar role on offence.

The problem here is that coaching staff in the NFL is traditionally white - and as white HCs move up the line they bring the people they know with them. Now it is worth noting - a majority of the current Denver coaching staff are black (or from a minority background), something which is very positive.

Itssoeasy · 01-03-2022 03:48PM

https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1498291973895168002?s=21

The statement from Kyler Murray’s agent yesterday was a new level of word salad. Kyler Murray is going to instagram wipe and bizarre statement himself out of Arizona if he’s not careful.

eagle eye · 01-03-2022 07:07PM

Well I wouldn't be paying him big money until he shows he can be consistent for a full season which he has failed to do to this point in his NFL career.

01-03-2022 07:27PM

He's gona reset the market one way or the other. The cards have moved on from a qb quick recently but just letting g a no.1 overall leave for nothing is rough. They could franchise tag and trade him I suppose

Itssoeasy · 01-03-2022 10:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715807#Comment_118715807

well he needs to stop with the instagram stunts and statements like yesterday and concentrate on football because he wasn’t healthy last season and the Cards started 10-2 and only won one game the rest of the way and stumbled into the playoffs. And the season before last they had to win one game or something like that to get into the playoffs and collapsed. The team as a whole needs to cop on to itself and work to fix the issues, because the NFL isn’t moving the super bowl to November.

Jolly Red Giant · 05-03-2022 12:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118715710#Comment_118715710

Murray's agent is also agent for Kingsbury - and apparently this was all about the fact that the Cards owner did not pay the coaches their bonus for reaching the play-offs because he was peeved about how meekly they went down in the play-off game. It was leverage to force his hand - and Kingsbury (and the GM) has ended up with an extension to 2026 as a result. Murry will be taken care of next year.

boccy23 · 08-03-2022 04:28PM

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1501232835486703625

boccy23 · 08-03-2022 04:29PM

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1501232835486703625

The #Packers and MVP QB Aaron Rodgers have agreed to terms on a 4-year, $200M deal that makes him the highest paid player in NFL history, sources say. He gets a whopping $153M guaranteed and his cap number goes down. A monstrous commitment by GB for years to come. 💰 💰 💰

Oat23 · 08-03-2022 05:40PM

Aaron "It's not about the money" Rodgers

Broncos fans in a shambles now trying to convince themselves Mitch Trubisky would be a great FA signing. 😂

Oat23 · 08-03-2022 06:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118752569#Comment_118752569

Hahaha nevermind

What a day. Amazing.

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1501266969944858630?t=ZGJVtxAn0BhJmaBGFjh3mQ&s=19

Blockbuster: After weeks of negotiations, in one of the largest trades in NFL history, the Seattle Seahawks and Denver Broncos have agreed to terms for a deal involving Super-Bowl winning QB Russell Wilson, sources tell ESPN.

paulie21 · 08-03-2022 07:53PM

https://twitter.com/AllanBell247/status/1501274411671822336?t=fZws6Afa4OEEnXwzuzGY-w&s=19

The deal in full

eagle eye · 08-03-2022 09:58PM

Giving Rodgers a four year contract is insane. Two years at that money would be enough.

As for the Wilson deal, these things never really work out for the Broncos.

Xavi6 · 08-03-2022 11:30PM

The AFC West is stacked at QB now, Carr by far the worst of the four starters and he isn't even that bad.

The Seahawks have gotten a lot to work with for their rebuild, should they be looking to do that with a much younger coach than 70-year-old Pete Carroll?

Jolly Red Giant · 09-03-2022 09:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118754226#Comment_118754226

What never works out for the Broncos - getting a franchise QB?

the trade for John Elway worked out well - the trade for Champ Bailey worked out well - the trade for Gary Zimmerman worked out well - even the trade for Terrell Davis worked out well (Denver traded down in the draft and selected Davis). And let's not forget that the Broncos also managed to sign Peyton Manning as a FA.

In fact you have to go back to 1964 for a disasterous trade - in 1964 the Broncos traded their 1965 1st rounder to the Oilers for a QB named Jacky Lee. The Broncos had a disasterous season and the pick turned out to be the No.1 overall pick - the pick ended up with the Jets and they took Joe Namath. After that - the worst trade in Broncos history is regarded as the McDisaster trade up for Tebow and the shipping of a future 1st rounder to move up in 2009 to take a nobody CB in the second round.

To be clear - the Broncos fleeced the Seahawks in this deal - they gave up 2 1s and 2 2s - Drew Lock was done in Denver, Shelby Harris is easily replaceable and Noah Fant is good but hasn't really performed to his talent level and it is likely the Broncos weren't going to pick up his fifth year option (don't know why Seattle took him because he is the opposite of a Pete Carroll TE). To put it another way - the Broncos gave less to Seattle for an established franchise QB who, if healthy, could play another 6-7 years than the 49ers gave to trade up for Trey Lance last year (now I think Lance could be really good - especially in the hands of Kyle Shanahan - but he is still a major risk).

This deal for Wilson puts the Broncos right in the mix as a SB contender.

And by the way - it took Wilson all of six hours to complete his physical and sign off on his no-trade clause. This has been in the works for weeks - George Paton is turning out to be a masterful GM.

Christy42 · 09-03-2022 09:57AM

I think Fant is a great player who has had bad qbs. That will likely continue unless Seattle hit gold pretty quickly.

AFC QB roster is insane and incredibly deep now.

The Weird, Wacky and Awesome World of the NFL - General Banter thread V3

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