Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Why do Landlords feel entitled to rent increases?

167891012»

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    "cruxifying"? Go easy on the hyperbole, will you? If LLs are leaving because some nasty people wrote or said some nasty things about them, then they need to grow up.

    The tax rates haven't increased as far as I'm aware so I don't see why that has been a big reason for LLs leaving.

    As I've said numerous times now, making it easier for LLs to evict non-paying tenants would make a huge difference. Providing tax breaks would do little or nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    So you'd put tax incentives in place to get LLs to enter the market and just ignore the obvious consequences that this would have on people trying to buy homes?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    If you're an existing LL, your profitability didn't change when REITs entered the market and they wouldn't change if those tax breaks were removed in the morning. I see how a LL looks at a REIT and sees that it's unfair but the LLs profitability is unchanged by the sweet deal REITs get



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭fliball123


    I dont even have to argue with you. The figures speak for themselves. Not just the amount of landlords leaving the market but also the current high rental rates and low rates of availability to rent. Way too much risk with a p1ss poor return on investment. So they need to grow up?? really and take a risk that their is no certainty of payment for long periods of time or that in an identical investment beside them that some behemoth of a REIT has bought is paying feck all tax in comparison to them. Why would you bother.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Well when you have people who can get a good ROI and your getting a p1ss poor one and the risk for you has greatly increased due to tenant laws you dont have to be a genius to monetize your asset using the current house price. As I say its no longer attractive to have be a small landlord



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    And this goes back to my original point, the risk associated with being a LL (i.e. non-paying tenants) is where LL lobbying should be focused instead of whinging about tax which just makes them look greedy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,309 ✭✭✭DataDude


    Agreed on first point that tax breaks would just push up prices.

    On second point, easier eviction of non-paying tenants would also push-up prices. The price a REIT/Individual Investor is willing to pay is based on the yield adjusted for the risk. The current biggest risk is a non-paying tenant. If that risk is substantially reduced investors would be willing to accept a lower yield and thus push up prices significantly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭fliball123


    Your forgetting about how other bodies are getting a favorable deal in what they pay in tax and in how taxes and other costs are paid. Your not going to change the issue with non-paying tenant we are effective a hughly left leaning country (and going further left by the day) now and anything given to those who are deemed put upon or the unfortunate is very hard to take away. They have tried to lobby about the tenants issue its fallen on deaf ears as how could any government give more equal rights to the nasty greedy landlords so now they are lobbying with their feet in selling up and they will continue to do so. So you say they are whinging about tax well to counter that with respect its like a gospel choir out there with people wanting and whinging for property for free or looking for people to rent or sell for less than what a person can rightly expect out there in the open market and of course just as you stated here it makes landlords look greedy for trying to make a decent profit.. Your argument would make sense if what your talking about actually brought more supply of rentals on stream and in turn more supply reduces cost. But don't let your view of the whinging landlord get in the way of sound economics.



  • Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The tax liability wasn’t a concern of mine when I was a landlord. There’s 2 certainties, right?

    The one sided rules that favour the bad tenants, the constant overnight changes to the rules and the uncertainty of exactly how much control I will have over MY property in the future.

    I bought at the height of the boom, lost my construction job not long after, got into arrears and had to restructure mortgage. Got married and moved into spouses house and rented mine. Tenant turned into a c unt after a few years and eventually got him out last year. I’m in the NW and even though prices have increased, I wouldn’t have that much capital in it due to restructure. So I’ll leave it empty, use it for me and my relatives and wait for the next cycle.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,424 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Not really. The LL could have a self admin pension fund. That would be the closest comparison.

    Incorporating a company to hold a residential property would be a terrible idea in most cases as you could actually increase the tax payable. Compliance costs would also wipe out most of the benefit unless you had multiple properties within the company (but it would still be a terrible idea).

    Funds are scaleable as the expertise needed to run one is expensive as is the compliance cost but having hundreds of properties make those expenses feasible



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 126 ✭✭1percent


    An idea I have from reading this thread, if a group of LLs combined their rental assets in to a Ltd. Each having share holding equal to the value of assets included. This could be calculated based on a yeid % of the curent rent of the property. Profits could be held in the company and used to leverage buying more properties increasing returns.

    This would allow consolidation of maintenance, accountancy ,compliance ect costs.

    It would also derisk overholding.

    Any dividend paid would obviously be charged at 40%.

    What do people think?



  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BattleCorp1


    Maybe a very stupid question but if a landlord has a mortgage on a property, how do they transfer ownership of that property to a ltd. company?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,424 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    You have just reinvented a REIT 👍🏾

    A limited company would be taxed on profit at 25% and whatever was left over would be distributed and taxed at 52% so total tax paid would be higher.



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Flynn Vast Quintessence


    If you're a landlord in Ireland and not making money hand over fist, you should abandon ship. You're an entrepreneurial failure.

    Ireland is the landlord equivalent of the Cayman Islands.

    I'd love to be a landlord but unfortunately I have morals and principles.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 705 ✭✭✭houseyhouse




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Lets hope you are not in charge of the household finances, morals and principles are not your biggest obstacle to successful investment in property.



  • Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Your wish is our command. We’ve left in droves so don’t be crying now that you’ve nowhere to rent. Renters, eh? They’re entrepreneurial failures at life because they lack negotiations skills.

    Yes, what I’ve just posted does sound silly. Just like your post!

    Bring back the rolleyes emoji!



  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Flynn Vast Quintessence




  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Flynn Vast Quintessence


    I keep abreast of the 'woes' of the Irish landlord.

    Being a landlord is an investment, not entitlement to an income (although in Ireland it's as close to a legal money printer as one will find).

    Amazing that landlords think rental income is an entitlement but will reject HAP.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Regrettably your ignorance of the sector grows, LLs rarely if ever reject HAP based on income, it is mostly rejected due to issues with continuity of payment. The LA has no contract with the LL, and no obligation to pay HAP if the tenant ceases paying their meagre portion. If the LA were obligated to pay irrespective of the tenants paying their portion, there would be a different opinion of HAP tenants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    The poster actually stumbled upon a salient point, are landlords entrepreneurs? They're definitely in business, but we tend to associate entrepreneurs with financial risk taking and innovation. I'd argue that a great number of citizen landlords, myself included, would be quiet financially risk adverse. So fair enough, entrepreneurial failures, but I'm not sure people either set out to be successful at that or that being a small time landlord is conductive to same.

    Let me break it down for you. The yield on my property is 4.2% with the tax man taking roughly half. In the same time period the asset appreciate by 5% and I'd only pay a third of that in CGT. Positive income stream and capital appreciation factor into the business model. When Sinn Fein or the like propose that landlords never be able to sell at market rate a property, they effective zero out the Capital gain. If I have to choose between no rental income or no capital gains, well the smart move is to bank the 5% and move on. The single best time to make such a move is before the law changes. For me this has to be the reason so many landlords are selling up, it's not emotional, it's not due to bad tenants, it's due to hard cold financials.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,462 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    What is immoral about providing a service for over 40 years to people who need a home?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭rightmove


    I never said that. LL leaving the market is the problem. small LL's



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭rightmove




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 705 ✭✭✭houseyhouse


    If you think it’s a money making machine, then clearly you’re not that familiar with it.

    I bought my apartment as a home. Thanks to the financial crisis I could not afford to sell it when I needed to move for work. I suppose I could have stayed put, stopped paying my mortgage and lived off social welfare. Instead I let it out and rented elsewhere myself. Usually the rent has covered costs but I haven’t made much profit from rental income. Now that house prices are up, I’ll sell as soon as my tenants leave but I don’t want to kick them out. Please, tell me again how lacking in morals and principles I am??!!



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 13,688 ✭✭✭✭ Flynn Vast Quintessence


    Unless you're unemployed, I'd say in the last three years you have earned more than me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,462 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Why don''t you have job for the last 3 years? You do understand landlords pay a lot in taxes that helps pay for people unable or not working? If somebody is earning more than you what is your problem with that?Not sure why you are so angry. Ignorance of how economics of the rental market is one thing but what is the anger about?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,523 ✭✭✭fliball123


    People want if for free or for a lot less then they are paying and the idea that someone else will pay more never enters the head. In order to fix the issues with property all government supports ie - HAP , FTB should be stopped and the way the housing list elevates those not working higher than those who work all need to be re-assessed. Sh1t like I dont have a big enough garden, or I am a 20 minute walk from mumsy, or I dont have a south facing garden being used as an excuse for not accepting a property while your on a housing list is the tail wagging the dog here. You can see by the sh1t that went on last night cuts to travel passes, tinkering with the fuel allowance but it is once again it is unbalance some people do not have decent public transport option so they are effectively paying more to cover the cost of this for others to avail. They should of cut the "supposedly temporary tax" USC then everyone would of got a bit of gravy and helped with spiraling costs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Ah so it's not so much you have superior morals but rather you lack the means.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This guy is either clueless, trolling, or both.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭Thestart


    You should be embarrassed after writing this. Unfortunately for you you won’t be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    of course they do but the reason they play the tune they do is its music to the ears of media and other left wing ideologues who view punishing landlords as being just as important as increasing rental supply

    SF are always aware of being outdone by those further left , the Ruth Coppingers and Richard Boyd Barrets of this world view letting property for return as inherently evil , as do many of the big voices on Twitter and even the mainstream media , the discourse around landlords in Ireland is as antagonistic as that towards drug dealers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Ive three properties though one is a commercial one , of the two residentials I own , one is in a long term lease to Limerick city council so Ive no responsibility whatsoever , rent is lower than market rate but the yield is 12% due to having taken the risk of buying in a flood risk area ( significant flood defences erected in past five years though )

    the other is in the East of the country and the rent is below market rate but the family are such good tenants , I dont really mind , I considered buying more property a little over a year ago but instead invested in the IRES reit , dividend yield was over 4% when i purchased and stock is up circa 14% , with the kind of diversification I have in the REIT , I think i did the right thing , bought the commercial REIT HIBERNIA as well , that was yielding closet to 5% when I bought it



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik



    I recognize his style. Hes back :)

    He has been in the property threads for a while now predicting a crash. Keeps moving the date. You know him well :)



  • Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭TheWonderLlama


    how do you feel about the 17% drop in share price in IRES so far this year?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,094 ✭✭✭DubCount


    If you are going to invest in any traded stock, you cant measure success in a 2 month timeframe. See what the 3-5 year capital gain/loss is like.

    A 17% reduction in the first 2 months of the year is also an indication of increased value for investors moving into REIT investments at the moment. Lets see if its still down 17% even 12 months from now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭TheWonderLlama


    down 10.49% in one year.

    down 16.18% in 5 years.

    You'd be better off putting it under your mattress.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx




  • Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭TheWonderLlama


    I always thought the stock price was a fairly accurate barometer of the financial health of a company, but then again these are strange times.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Over the short term, absolutely not ,everything gets thrown out during a crisis like this



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    No because you collect no dividend with cash under a mattress, just dust


    Paper losses are irrelevant



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭Fian


    Inflation is predicted to run at 4-6% over the next 2 years. Rent increases in RPZs will be capped at 2%. This constitutes rent decreases across the board in real (albeit not nominal) terms.


    This combined with increases in the value of the underlying asset which will run well above 2% means an ongoing annual reduction in yield. Which means inevitably we reach a point where better yields are available for the capital value of the equity in the property elsewhere. At which point it makes sense to sell up rather than continue to rent, especially since those alternative yields can probably be achieved at significantly less risk and less effort/hassle.


    So don't be surprised when the supply of rental accommodation continues to reduce.



Advertisement