Are the attempts to stop the British government amnesty for the troubles futile

Harryd225 · 30-01-2022 2:42am #1

All political parties in Ireland along with all the victim groups of the troubles from Ireland to England along with pretty much the whole population of Ireland both Unionist and Republican are completely opposed to the amnesty, what can do they do about it realistically? If the British government clicks their fingers and says that's that then what can they do about it?

The forthcoming amnesty bill would prevent all prosecutions for crimes during the troubles and shut down all further inquiries into the state’s actions during the Troubles, such a law would have prohibited the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday and other inquiries into state collusion with loyalists which many believe is the real reason for this amnesty.

Although Boris Johnson seems to be getting most of the blame it's extremely unlikely he and a few of his colleagues decided out of the blue to take this decision, he more than likely done this after being recommended and convinced to do so by MI5, the most powerful people in Britain.

During the troubles the intelligence services worked closely with loyalist paramilitaries as part of a psychological warfare campaign against the IRA, one of the most infamous was the killing of human rights solicitor Pat Finucane who was at the time investigating state collusion with loyalists when MI5 set him up for assassination, this case stands out because it's one of the only cases that have been proven beyond doubt, although the state is strongly suspected of involvement in hundreds murders in collusion with loyalists.

There is a good documentary on Netflix about the Miami showband massacre, it talks about Robin Jackson the most ruthless killer during the whole troubles who is estimated to have been involved in the murder of 150 innocent Catholics and lead the men who committed the Dublin Monaghan bombings and the Miami showband massacre, it provides evidence that he was an agent working for MI5 and RUC special branch and that the Miami showband massacre was signed off on at the highest level of the British intelligence agencies and that government of the time likely knew about it, the documentary claims the intelligence services set this up because they wanted the Irish government to seal the Irish border as the IRA in the South were launching attacks against the army and then fleeing easily back across the border.

30-01-2022 9:58am

They will be offering amnesty for the Manchester arena bombers next

30-01-2022 10:05am

They chased the nazis to the end of the earth,and introduce laws to provide immunity to their own war criminals

I dont think the british are as good as they let on

Jim2007 · 30-01-2022 10:05am

Confusing indifference with support is a mistake.... Your opinion is out of step with the times.

People, reluctantly, accept that it is a step that has to be taken and so unless you are willing to do an awful lot more that be a keyboard warrior then you are just going to have to accept that. For instance have you even visited you local politicians and made them aware of your opinions??? If not then you have answered your own question.

30-01-2022 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553237#Comment_118553237

Its not a step,that has to be taken....theres not a single victim relative group from either side supports this

Fundamentally,they deserve justice/answers for what happened to their loved ones,irregardless of who killed em,

Harryd225 · 30-01-2022 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553237#Comment_118553237

This is complete and utter nonsense Jim I have to say this is one of the most uneducated posts on any subject I've seen on boards in a long time, my opinion is completely in step with the times, a quick google search should bring you up to the date on the matter, I honestly don't know how you came to the conclusion in that post.

The proposals are strongly opposed by all the parties at Stormont, the Irish government and all of the victims groups, even labour are strongly opposed to it.

I wouldn't personally have a problem with an end to convictions, I do have a problem with an end to all inquiries and inquests into troubles matters, the British are trying to cover up their activities.

You don't seem to know much or seem to have read much articles about the amnesty so here are some to bring you up to date https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2022-01-07/amnesty-plans-do-not-have-support-to-proceed-legitimately-labour

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/un-expresses-grave-concern-over-proposed-troubles-amnesty-1.4644156?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fpolitics%2Fun-expresses-grave-concern-over-proposed-troubles-amnesty-1.4644156

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/historic-day-as-major-parties-sign-document-to-reject-troubles-amnesty-plans-40802372.html

"Representatives from all the major parties, North and South, have signed a document outlining their rejection of the UK Government proposals to introduce an amnesty for legacy killings".

Harryd225 · 30-01-2022 11:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553254#Comment_118553254

He clearly just didn't really have a clue what was going on and didn't read most of the OP, it's fair enough, stuff happens.

He claimed people reluctantly accept it is a step that has to be taken, I provided him with articles showing that it's a step literally no one apart from the Tories and MI5 see it as a step that has to be taken, he should come back soon with a new, more well informed opinion on the subject.

mikethecop · 30-01-2022 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118552891#Comment_118552891

just pointing out a pattern of behavior by a proven fantasist driving a specific agenda at the behest of a specific semi political group harry , i don't know why it would irk you so when its pointed out unless you dont want people to spot what you and some other posters here are at 😉 helps to keep boards honest

Jim2007 · 30-01-2022 2:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553523#Comment_118553523

At the end of the day beyond mouthing off you have done and will do nothing. Enough said.

Harryd225 · 30-01-2022 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554319#Comment_118554319

When have I claimed I'm going to do anything about it? What do you expect Harry from boards to do about it? I'm simply discussing the matter as most people on boards do.

Jim2007 · 30-01-2022 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553254#Comment_118553254

We know who killed them and we have a pretty good idea of what happened. The brutal reality is that continuing to rehash this will serve not purpose in the big picture. So unless you are willing to do awful lot more that spatter out the odd comment on social media that is how this ends and there little point in debating who moved your cheese.

30-01-2022 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554343#Comment_118554343

What is this bigger picture yous speak of,and how deos covering up war crimes here (and this is what it is btw) along with sheltering the murderers of elected politians bode for future conduct and carryon from these people?

Its entirely reasonable for anyone to want justice for their killed relatives/friends,otherwise all your doing is attempting to put a lid on something,that will inevitably explode again

Harryd225 · 30-01-2022 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554343#Comment_118554343

Well you should tell that to the Irish government, all major political parties in Ireland North and South and the labor party in the UK, you should also tell all of the victim groups and the UN who all strongly disagree with this amnesty which Britain is introducing in an attempt to hide all of the horrible things they done in Northern Ireland.

No point telling me.

piplip87 · 30-01-2022 2:48pm

You have the Loyalists demanding that their murderers where only defending their community from attacks and should not be charged with crimes.

You have SF/IRA who have already received amnesty letters saying that their murderers where only doing it for Civil Rights and they should not be charged.

Then you have the British saying their murderers where protecting the people.

All three of the above believe their band of murderers where justified in their actions. They all believe their victims where collateral damage and they all use innocent civilians who got murdered for their own political gain.

All as bad as eachother

O'Neill · 30-01-2022 5:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553237#Comment_118553237

Good grief. You do realise that all of the political parties are against an amnesty? Also when this was first announced, this brought back the pain for many of the families on these islands. How on earth can you seriously move on without a proper reconciliation process taking place. Like Richard Moore in Derry who was left blind by being shot in the eye by a British soldier but are now in good terms. Without such a process there can't be any proper healing which is a failure on Stormont and the British Government.

end of the road · 30-01-2022 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554317#Comment_118554317

this is conspiracy theorist mumbojumbo.

end of the road · 30-01-2022 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554319#Comment_118554319

your posts seem to be way out of step with the actual topic, you must be referring to another poster on another thread.

mikethecop · 30-01-2022 6:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555433#Comment_118555433

aw that's just what they want you to think , don't fall for it 🤣🤣

"dont be a sheaple "

Jim2007 · 31-01-2022 8:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554509#Comment_118554509

Yep as I said a lot of hot air, but nobody actually doing anything… at the end of the day a line needs to be drawn under this and we move on and that is exactly what will happen. An Irish-American President, Ireland on the security council, member of the EU…. And nada - note even a hint of a UN resolution etc…

end of the road · 31-01-2022 1:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118557833#Comment_118557833

no line will be drawn and no moving on will happen until ireland is fully free, an amnesty for british army terrorists will not be the drawing of a line and moving on.

the amnesty will deny the people of northern ireland justice, say those people are lesser people then those living in britain itself, and admit the british army were no different to terrorists which won't go down well.

and that is the best case, the worst case is we see violence on the streets of northern ireland again.

maccored · 31-01-2022 2:42pm

are you surprised the British government would try this? I'm not, and they WILL try to do it. the fact they are trying it on shows they have a lot to hide. then again though - whats new there? They've always been a shower of **** who lie.

maccored · 31-01-2022 2:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118555253#Comment_118555253

you are debating with people on this forum who's nearest experience of the north is reading the Indo. Don't expect them to have any inkling of an idea of what you mean

maccored · 31-01-2022 2:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118554540#Comment_118554540

how many of those three are a well financed world super power?

Harryd225 · 31-01-2022 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118557833#Comment_118557833

Complete nonsense, both sides Catholic and Protestant have repeatedly called for a truth and reconciliation process similar to the one in South Africa which would allow people to speak openly about what happened what happened during the troubles, this information would also work in collaboration with an investigative team into the troubles.

The British are strongly opposed to this, they are putting an end to not just convictions, but also all inquests and public inquiries into the troubles, they want to bury the past and put an end to all the information that has been coming out in the last the 20 years into their collusion with loyalists.

Gatling · 31-01-2022 8:32pm

Sure it's all propaganda Harry

Harryd225 · 31-01-2022 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561730#Comment_118561730

What's all propaganda? What are you on about? Are you sure you've clicked on the right thread?

Gatling · 31-01-2022 8:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118561744#Comment_118561744

Yes .

MrVestek · 31-01-2022 8:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553236#Comment_118553236

Please tell me this is sarcasm because erh... DUH?!

Harryd225 · 31-01-2022 9:30pm

Along with all of the war crimes by the British army, and MI5 collusion with loyalists that led to the deaths of hundreds of innocent people, the British used to kidnap IRA suspects on this side of the border and if the kidnapping went wrong then they would kill them and blame the killings on loyalists.

The SAS in 1976 kidnapped an IRA man on the other side of the border, the SAS man told him "if you want to end it here and now then your death will be claimed by the UVF, otherwise come with us." The claims were strongly denied at the time but in a documentary on Robert Nairac from the 2000s, the former SAS deputy commander claims that the story is more than likely true.

This in correlation with the flagstaff hill incident, which was an international incident between the Republic and the United Kingdom where eight SAS men were captured by the Irish army on this side of the border, they were carrying sterling submachine guns, a browning pistol and a pump action shotgun, the weapons found on the SAS men were significant as they were not weapons you would expect the SAS to be using, the weapons found on them were the same weapons "loyalists" were using to kill numerous Irish people near the border in the Republic in the same year.

The Nairac documentary can be found here if anyone is interested. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D9DJ8L44puTQ&ved=2ahUKEwj-55G36tz1AhXHQkEAHZxhA-4QFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3UKTwgcBNncfORTKLw9ZCO

piplip87 · 01-02-2022 12:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118559556#Comment_118559556

It does not matter. All of the above targeted innocent civilians. All of the above used the other side's targeting of innocent life to condone their own taking of innocent life.

Miniegg · 01-02-2022 3:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563015#Comment_118563015

I’m so sick of people equivocating the British government murdering innocent people with terrorist murders. What moral authority could the UK possibly have to govern in NI if they are the same as terrorists?

Terrorist groups are in their nature illegal, and their only reason for being is to commit intentional violence (including murder) to achieve their aims. They have no responsibility to protect innocent people, they have no mandate to govern.

Loyalist and Republicans who murdered on behalf of terrorist groups who murdered – I believe -should face the full force of the law. It is up to the UK and Irish governments to hold these people accountable before the law as they see fit.

An elected, sovereign government - whose fundamental responsibility is the protection of its citizens and the upholding law and order - sending its soldiers into Northern Ireland and allowing them to maim and murder its own innocent civilians with impunity, and then be given amnesty, is completely different on every level.

Citizens committing violence (such as terrorists) can never give a government authority to murder its own innocent people. If so, where do we draw the line? Can the Irish government send in the army to shoot up Grafton Street because the Kinahans and Hutches are feuding? Will you say it’s ok because all sides “targeted innocents”?

I don’t think you would, because that would be ridiculous.

blanch152 · 01-02-2022 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118553236#Comment_118553236

You are forgetting that there are IRA murderers walking around waving letters that they got from Tony Blair in order to avoid prosecution.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/13/tony-blair-defends-on-the-run-letters-ira-northern-ireland

If we are to deal with the legacy of the Troubles, these letters must be declared null and void so that all of those who committed criminal acts can be prosecuted.

blanch152 · 01-02-2022 4:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565877#Comment_118565877

It has never been demonstrated that the British government murdered innocent people. There is no evidence of any government decision to permit the killing of innocents.

Yes, some British soldiers have been convicted of murder. One example is the killing of a Taliban fighter:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/28/marine-a-alexander-blackman-released-from-prison

However, nobody would ever argue that the British government murdered that Taliban fighter, and the same applies with respect to Northern Ireland.

Harryd225 · 01-02-2022 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565933#Comment_118565933

Personally I'd rather a truth and reconciliation process which would end ALL convictions, the British are the only ones strongly opposed to this as the truth is the last thing they want or need right now.

I'm in favour of ending all prosecutions but doing this has to be done in accordance with some sort of truth process so the loved ones of the dead can get answers, what the British are trying to do with this amnesty is make sure the truth will never come out by making all inquiries and inquests into the troubles illegal.

blanch152 · 01-02-2022 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565981#Comment_118565981

I want them all to go to jail, those British soldiers who broke the law, and all those terrorists who committed criminal acts. Those Tony Blair letters were a disgrace.

Harryd225 · 01-02-2022 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565991#Comment_118565991

There's no chance they're going to prosecute their former soldiers for behaviour that was approved of at the time, the Queen awarded the soldiers of bloody Sunday medals for their "good work".

There's also no chance they're now going to prosecute the intelligence services in 2022 for carrying out state approved collusion in their psychological warfare campaign against the IRA.

Miniegg · 01-02-2022 4:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565972#Comment_118565972

Thanks Blanch152 - I don't really see how that is relevant to my point tbh, or if you are being naive possibly.

That looks to me like a soldier killed a wounded Taliban fighter in Afghanistan - a country where the UK was at war. The soldier involved in the killing was jailed for doing so. What does it have to do with the British army murdering it's own innocent civilians on British soil?

You say it has never been demonstrated that the UK government murdered innocent people. Do you mean it has never been demonstrated in a British court of law? Is that not the point of this thread, they are refusing to look into the matter and offering amnesty not only to the soldiers, but to all those in government who lied and covered it up?

What I will say about your story - do you not find it odd that when a soldier does something illegal on his own back, that he was prosecuted by the army for it.

Whereas in NI when a battalion of soldiers massacre innocent civilians (such as at Ballymurphy), they are actually redeployed to murder again two weeks later (Derry).

That some of the soldiers who murdered innocent people were promoted in the army after the fact (e.g. Mike Jackson, who took part in the Ballymurphy massacre was actually promoted all the way up to head of the British army!)

That UK politicians and army figures lied repeatedly down the years that the victims of the British Army were IRA bombers and terrorists?

How can these unbelievable coincidences be explained away? The whole amnesty thing is disgraceful, and I really think excuses shouldn't be offered toward the UK government in this whole affair.

Miniegg · 01-02-2022 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565991#Comment_118565991

I agree - I just can't equivocate what terrorist groups did with what the British government did - they are completely separate.

A government would have absolutely no moral authority to go after terrorist groups if holds itself to the same standard as those terrorists.

blanch152 · 01-02-2022 5:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566213#Comment_118566213

Except as I have said, there is no evidence of direct British government involvement or of orders from above. Those who have been implicated in acts of criminality by the British forces either acted alone or under local command. There doesn't appear to ever have been orders from London for acts of violence. The British government may be guilty of acts of omission if they knew post-hoc of such incidents and didn't act but acts of omission don't equate to the acts of commission by the PIRA, and by Sinn Fein supporting them, which are on a more serious level.

Holding the British government to a higher standard still does not bring them down to the level of the PIRA who made no bones about terrorising their own community and together with other republicans, killed more from the nationalist community than anyone else.

Harryd225 · 01-02-2022 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566254#Comment_118566254

There's no evidence? There's overwhelming evidence if you bothered to look, there would be far more evidence if the British didn't keep putting a stop to public inquiries.

The MRF was a top secret British army unit consisting of people hand picked from across the army including the SAS, their main task was to track down and kill members of the IRA, that's not the only thing they were tasked with though, they were also tasked with creating tensions by indiscriminately killing innocent Catholic civilians, the former members of the unit being interviewed say "we were not there to act like an army unit we were there to act like a terror force" here's a good documentary on it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D92ApTmOCcPM&ved=2ahUKEwjWq7G-8971AhUKilwKHdCyDscQFnoECAQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0ubifS20Dqr3f5nGUp2yXb

There's overwhelming evidence MI5 and the British government set Pat Finucane up for assassination, a human rights solicitor who was was investigating British state collusion with loyalists, strong evidence MI5 set up the Dublin Monaghan bombings, the Miami showband massacre which Netflix done a good documentary on recently, I could go on forever.

Not only all of that but the UDA was a legal paramilitary organisation up until 1972 despite being involved in the the murder of hundred of innocent civilians.

Harryd225 · 01-02-2022 5:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566254#Comment_118566254

RTE done a documentary on collusion not too long ago, although anyone with even a passing interest in the troubles would have known most of it anyway. The documentary concluded that "there is clear evidence that points to collusion being not only practice but policy; it was planned and directed with full political authority".

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/collusion-rte-documentary-2163928-Jun2015/%3famp%3D1

Miniegg · 01-02-2022 5:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566254#Comment_118566254

I don't really see how you can argue the point about evidence in any credible way blanch152?

The UK government is refusing to look into it's own actions around British Army murders in Northern Ireland. They are refusing to release the official documents they have on file relating to their behavior around that time. Given their position, why would you expect to see evidence from them?

Why would you ignore the points I made (which are easily researched facts), and base your opinion on a government who is admittedly covering up their behavior and offering amnesty to all involved in what has been proven to be murder of its own citizens?

Lastly - I am clearly not equivocating the British to the IRA/ UVF etc - everybody knows about the atrocities they committed - this thread isn't about them.

Despite what you say, in practice you are patently NOT holding the British government to a higher standard than you are terrorist groups.

Brucie Bonus · 01-02-2022 6:11pm

Its important that the British state is shown for what it is. They suit themselves and do not care about the Northern Irish from any community unless its convenient.

Brucie Bonus · 01-02-2022 6:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118563015#Comment_118563015

Only one side has the support of a so called legitimate government who are working to protect their murderers.

generic_throwaway · 01-02-2022 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058230474/are-the-attempts-to-stop-the-british-government-amnesty-for-the-troubles-futile

Surely you would be behind this amnesty, given that there was a war and people get killed in wars??

No rush to answer if you have an important interdiction mission to do.

Harryd225 · 01-02-2022 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566622#Comment_118566622

I'm behind an amnesty in correlation with a truth process, I'm not behind this amnesty which would not only end all prosecutions, it would also make all inquests and enquiries into the troubles illegal, the only goal of this amnesty is to make sure the truth doesn't come out.

end of the road · 01-02-2022 9:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118565933#Comment_118565933

the letters can't be declared null and void as the reason they were written is that there would not be enough evidence to bring a successful prosecution against the individuals anyway.

oisinog · 02-02-2022 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118567514#Comment_118567514

The letters say something alone the line that you dont face procesction on the current evidence and should fresh evidence arise they would reconsider the case.

Its very clear that the British are hiding something as they have refused to release documents under national security that should now be available