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Auschwitz was liberated 77 years ago

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,119 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Such an ignorant comment. You might want to brush up on your history.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,473 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    You say the far right but in actual fact a lot of Nazi policies were actually very left wing. Huge infrastructure spending like the Autobahns, the fiscal and other incentives to workers, work programs etc...

    They weren't called the National Socialists for nothing. The irony is despite banning trade unions they put in some the very policies they had long advocated for their members.

    So I don't think it's an accurate description to describe them exclusively as far right.

    And the reason it's problematic is because it's an attempt to white wash the other evil in society at the time, communism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭generic_throwaway


    Well using the same logic, you could argue that the Communists had some right-wing policies, therefore the Soviet Union was a right-wing organisation.

    Anyone with a) a brain and b) a book will reject both arguments as nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭Glock17


    Just before WW2 white americans were still lynching blacks.... in russia jews were getting killed in pogroms.... I bet the average white Brit soldier was racist as well....

    WW2 is painted as "nasty racist germans started killing jews etc. Good guys non racist Americans, brits and Russians stopped them".

    Being realistic, the likes of the Russians probably wouldnt have cared that jews were getting killed.... they were killings jews themselves...



  • Registered Users Posts: 172 ✭✭Glock17


    In the UK it was Keir Hardy that started the Labour Party. He wrote pamphlets criticising east european immigration. He said east european immigration reduced wages for British miners....

    So by today's standards the Labour Party was a far fight political party....

    Judging political parties from a century ago with today's political ideas gives misleading results....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 31,852 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Very moving programme on more 4 now (so all4 later) called Auschwitz Untold: In Colour.

    It includes interviews with 16 Holocaust survivors and restored archive footage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    Isolated incidents of racist violence in America do not equate to state sanctioned killing, destruction of property, synagogues being burned and Jews being arrested to spend weeks in concentration camps as happened in November 1938 in Germany. That was just the prelude to what happened in Poland a year later and the virtual annihilation of all German Jews over the following few years.

    Jews weren't being killed in pogroms, some were undoubtedly executed during the Stalinist terror as were other supposed traitors and sabatuers but actually Jews were quite prominent in the Soviet hirachy and the NKVD.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,026 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Indeed, the Soviet Union wasn't a particularly racist state. Those executed by the Soviets or sent to Gulags tended to be dissidents or people who were viewed as opponents of the regime (the Nazis were doing all of this as well of course, but made a conscious decision to murder every Jewish person in Europe, even people who posed them no threat whatsoever i.e. the overwhelming majority).



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,173 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Interesting point. While the Americans and Soviets were classed as the "good guys" - they raped millions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

    This world is mad. Nothing is ever clean cut black and white.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,026 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Definitely not millions (you must have misread the article), more like thousands or possibly into five figures.

    The levels of rapes and atrocities by the Red Army were on a different scale (but the Germans themselves bear considerable responsibility for this....regarding their Russian opponents as sub-human and refusing to surrender to them. Much of the brutality in the East was directly provoked by Nazi brutality and cruelty).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Great to see apologists in a holocaust thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,173 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    The link does say:

    "The majority of the assaults were committed in the Soviet occupation zone; estimates of the numbers of German women raped by Soviet soldiers have ranged up to 2 million" - If you want to dispute the source, ok then, but it does say up to 2 million.



  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Black Noel


    Bombing would have resulted in thousands of prisoner casualties.



  • Registered Users Posts: 220 ✭✭Black Noel


    Good point.

    The Allies really, really care today about the Holocaust because they are under huge pressure by Jewish groups to care.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,233 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    It’s alway interesting to think of events as ‘peoples ago’. The nazi death camps were one people ago. As socially recent as Italia 90.

    Picasso was a contemporary of both Charles Darwin and Eminem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,914 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    😆

    Well, this thread went well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 291 ✭✭Astartes


    I know! It's such a foolish point to make when there's over 100 million victims of leftist socialism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,808 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Is 77 supposed to be a landmark year or something? Why is a big fuss being made of it now? 75 or 80 fine, but why 77? Do we have to do this every year?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,914 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I see that this "the nazis were left wing" bollocks keeps coming up from certain posters.

    They weren't.

    Not even slightly.

    As to why they were named Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei; the reason for this lay in Hitler's idea to try and pull current voters and potential voters away from actual left wing parties like the KPD and SPD which had been gaining ground steadily throughout the 20's and 30's. It was a particular bit of genius on behalf of the future Fuhrer to elongate Anton Drexler's original party name and create a rather confusing moniker that could be used as a potential smoke screen.

    The fact of the matter, however, is that nothing the Nazis did could seriously be considered "left wing". Infrastructure and work programs aren't a left wing thing. Neither are roads like Autobahns. However, actual Nazi policy like banning trade unions and jailing left wingers is certainly the work of the far right. The first people through the gates of Dachau weren't Jews. They were Communists and Socialists which shows exactly where Hitler and the Nazis political direction lay.

    The Nazis also got into bed with Conservative Germany straight from the off and Conservative Germany was willing to play along, in the belief that they would be able to control him in the long term. But once Paul Von Hindenburg (a Conservative) made Hitler Chancellor, the die was cast.

    Outside of Germany, everywhere the Nazis went they hunted down the left and allied themselves with the right. In France, Norway, and many other nations they invaded, a right wing conservative of some description was placed in power and the left was destroyed.

    Calling the Nazis "left" remains one of the most egregious, and in many cases deliberately so, misreadings of history that one can engage in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,722 ✭✭✭Greyfox


    Who's making a big fuss? People are just discussing something interesting for a change



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Some of their economic policies were certainly left-wing by today's standard

    They were very much for military keynesianism, that is increasing economic output and demand by flooding the country with money.

    Free marketers and capitalists (one of the reasons they hated the Jews) they were not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,914 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Whether the modern right find it hard to swallow or not, the fact is that the Nazis and Hitler were right wing and no amount of weasel words will change that.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Totally awaiting some credible historians that agree with the sentiment that the Nazis were left wing....



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,728 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    No it wasn't. Not even close. You demean the memory and nature of the camps and belittle their true horror by even suggesting such a ridiculous thing.

    I once tried to argue with a Japanese online friend, who would have been born not long after the end of the war, that perhaps the US could have demonstrated a bomb offshore of Tokyo and said surrender or the next one's a direct hit, and she cut me off and said that wouldn't have worked and that the bombs were necessary and justified. I was floored that a native Japanese person would think that and it changed my perspective.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,914 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    That's merely her opinion, though, and I don't think that it could be backed by any serious dive into the matter.

    In any case, there was no way that the US were just going to show off their new weapon to the Japanese and "waste" it on a demonstration at sea, and any attempts by the likes of Leo Szilard and his group to persuade either Roosevelt or Truman into such an action fell upon deaf ears immediately. The Americans were dead set on using the bomb for a variety of reasons, not least of which were the test results that would be yielded by its use on a "virgin" urban areas like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which proved absolutely invaluable to the future development of such weaponry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,266 ✭✭✭thefallingman


    what does your comment say about the innocent people murdered in Hiroshima and Nagasaki ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Cyclingtourist


    Why stop at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, you could start with the bombing of Warsaw, Rotterdam (neutral), London, Coventry, Hamburg, Berlin, Dresden (which wasn't as exceptional as some think), then you have the firebombing of Tokyo (probably more civilian deaths than H&N)?

    Then there's cold blooded murder like what the Japanese did in China or the Germans in Poland and Russia. This was ordered from the top not isolated in 'the heat-of-battle' type.

    But this is getting away from what this thread is supposedly about which is the Nazi racist killing machine as symbolized by Auschwitz.



  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭cannonballTaffyOjones




  • Registered Users Posts: 19,728 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    It says nothing; just include them in the overall toll. They ase but a very small drop in a larage bucket

    https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-two/civilian-casualties-of-world-war-two/

    Their deaths are no more important or somehow worse and notable than the rest of the civillians killed in that war, the number of which was far too high. Those bombs prevented far more needless deaths than they caused.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,728 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Since you are not even being subtle in suggesting I am lying - go ahead and email her and ask if it's true: http://tomoko-yamamoto.com/

    Don't be fooled by the arty side, she also has a physics degree, or two, and taught that subject at a university in the US, before she moved to Austria. She's a big fan of Bach.



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