Auschwitz was liberated 77 years ago
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The extermination of Jewish people in under the Nazis was already well known about in 1942, with a detailed account being published by the then Polish government in exile for the attention of the Allies
The declaration details the treatment and killing of Jewish people in Poland and the use of ghettos and death camps to first detain and then exterminate vast numbers of people.
There is little doubt that the Allies know exactly what the Nazis were doing in 1942 /1943.
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that is some revisionist history pal.
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"There is little doubt that the Allies know exactly what the Nazis were doing in 1942 /1943."
Yes, but who were the allies? The answer may seem obvious but it really isn't.
The original 'allies' from September 1939 were Britain, France and Poland. While both Poland (1939) and France (1940) were both militarily defeated their subsequent status was quite different. France signed an agreement with Germany but Poland didn't and their Government moved to Britain maintaining military forces both outside and inside (Polish Home Army) Poland.
The 'allies' changed dramatically in June (Barbarossa) and December (German declaration of war on America) 1941. The Russians being an ally complicated relations as they had invaded eastern Poland at the end of September 1939 and when the Germans revealed in April 1942 the murder of Polish officers and elites (around 22,000) by the Soviet NKVD that had occurred in May 1940 this led to Moscow breaking relations with the Polish Government in exile.
The allies had a very good idea of what was happening in Poland right up to the end of the war thanks to the brave efforts of Poles during the occupation. What they could do regarding this knowledge is not as clear.
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Not necessarily.
There's a huge difference between suspecting something, based on rumour and speculation and knowing something exactly based on facts. While the allies certainly suspected that the Nazis were carrying out terrible actions against people they considered their enemies, they weren't in full possession of much of the factual data they would need to form a solid view on the matter. And much of the information that they did have was usually of a highly dubious nature, too, and very often false.
Suspicions of Nazi atrocity had been widespread since before the war even began, so it wasn't any real surprise that once the war had kicked off that those suspicions would grow. But suspicions and allegations aren't proof and, more often than not, that proof wasn't forthcoming.
It's all too easy for us to sit back today, 70+ years after the fact, and say who knew what or what they should have known. But in the midst of proceedings it's a very different matter indeed.
In addition to the above, the simple fact is that the allies weren't really in any position to do anything about Germany's more nefarious programmes in Europe. Their only real option was the continued prosecution of the war, which is what they did.
Some people often ask "Why didn't the Allies bomb the extermination camps in Poland", which is a valid question. But then one might have to ask, "Why would the Allies destroy the greatest propaganda coup that the Germans were handing them?"
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You make some good points regarding information and knowing but certainly by mid-1943 when I believe FDR was acknowledging in private the basic reality of what we now call the Holocaust the western allies knew as opposed to having unconfirmed reports.
The German soldiers who invaded Poland and later Russia were often equipped with personal cameras and photographed many of the atrocities. Some sent the undeveloped film home but others used a processing facility in Warsaw that had been infiltrated by the Polish underground. Copies of incriminating photos were made and eventually provided to the British and Americans.
The Nazi murder machine was so extensive there was little that could have been done that wasn't already part of the war effort.
The amazing thing is the priority that the Nazis gave to the Final Solution even when the tide had turned against them. This for me was the hardest to rationalise. It's only when you read the views of the top Nazis you realize that for them the extermination of every last Jew within their orbit was viewed as a strategic war aim.
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The term "final solution" had been used by Zionists since the 19th century, most often to refer to the migration of Jews in Europe to Palestine, but sometimes to the idea of complete integration into Gentile society. There's no proof that it ever came to mean anything else but that, only a supposition that at some point it came to mean something other than what it had always meant.
This is especially pertinent in consideration of the fact that the German government allowed half of all Jews in Germany to leave the country between 1933 and 1939, and even facilitated their transfer and the transfer of their wealth to Palestine if they agreed to go there. So it's understandable that you have difficulty rationalising the idea of a plan for complete extermination so late in the war.
That laws discriminatory toward Jews were introduced in Germany is not in any doubt. Poland was in the process of doing much the same thing before the war.
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It's amazing the lengths to which Holocaust deniers will go to avoid admitting what the Nazis themselves documented and justified unashamedly.
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The problem with all of the above is that WE know most of this stuff because of hugely extensive post war investigations into war that took longer than the war itself to run their course. During the war, time just wasn't there to make solid, conclusive, decisions. At best, the allies had assumptions and presumptions, mixed with a bit of fact here and a bit of rumour and conjecture there, and also anti German propaganda too. But it was really only after the war, when proper investigations were being carried out that anything solid could be determined.
As to German soldiers and their cameras, that would have been an extremely tiny amount of data exposing atrocities, much of which would remain unseen until after the war. Even so, the vast majority of German soldiers never experienced such a thing, even in four years of fighting on the Eastern Front. I have probably seen thousands of German photographs from WWII over the years and can count the number of atrocity photos, likely, in double figures, a number of which have been suspected of being faked.
But, again, I'll say what were the allies to do about it? The odd photo showing an execution didn't actually prove anything and even if it did, the allies were hardly in a position to orchestrate a response to past events that happened on a tiny patch of ground hundreds, if not, thousands of miles away.
As far as the topic of this thread is concerned, there were multiple rumours that emerged during the war about what the Nazis were doing at the likes of Auschwitz, all of which were unsubstantiated and therefore pretty worthless with which to form a decision on. Possibly the most significant report was the Vrba-Wetzler account, and even that was viewed with some suspicion by the allies. But that came in mid 1944, by which time the allied focus was entirely placed upon the eventual invasion of Europe.
So, while FDR, etc, may have been acknowledging basic realities, they would also argue that that was all that they could really realistically do.
Regarding the Nazis, believe it or not, the Endlosung was pretty low on their list of priorities for most of them. In fact the details and knowledge of its very existence was kept tightly controlled even for trusted members of the party. It would be a mistake to think that every party member, even at high levels, was privy to such sensitive information. Also, we tend to assign an unrealistic amount of efficiency to the Nazi's extermination programmes, when in reality much of it was carried out in a very ad hoc and disorganised manner and often through verbal orders to those that needed to know. The Nazis feared, rightly, that the widespread knowledge of what was happening in the east would lead to a collapse of power. So such information was passed on with great care and often nothing was done without the seal of approval of Himmler, because it was primarily his baby, as Hitler was more concerned with micromanaging the war, much to the chagrin of the armed forces.
Certainly for some, including Himmler, the war against the Jews (whatever that actually meant, and it was very different to different individuals) was a (if not the) top priority for the war, even a moral one, and remains a peculiar and difficult mindset for others to comprehend especially when we consider the sheer chaos of the final year, when the majority of minds would have been focused on more pressing matters.
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The German term was "Endlosung" as coined during the Nazi's discussions on the Endlosung der Judenfrage (The Final Solution of the Jewish Question) during 1942. It had nothing to do with any previous terminology regarding a "final solution", if indeed one ever really existed within Zionism or not.
Exactly what the likes of the Haavara Agreement has to do with the eventual genocidal operations of the Nazis remains a mystery though. What, exactly, are you trying to get at there?
Plus, anti-Semitism in other European nations also has little to do with eventual German plans as they played out. I'm unsure why that angle is being introduced as well.
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Again you make some valid points but it wasn't Himmler who was doing the dirty work after 1942, the year in which probably half the Jews were murdered. The mopping up of 'work Jews' and ones who remained in former axis states like Italy and Hungary was carried out by tens of thousands of SS and whermacht as well as civilians. Himmler wasn't himself rounding up Jews in places like Budapest or the island of Rhodes.
Yes the majority of Germans had other more pressing matters on their minds in 1943, 44 and 45 but that doesn't mean a sizeable number of them weren't aware of the widespread murder of Jews by the Nazis.
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The "work" carried out by the functionaries was done so at the behest of Himmler, however, even if he wasn't getting his hands dirty himself and nothing was given a go ahead on the subject without his authority. Orders of sonderbehandlung, etc, had to come directly from his offices before anything was put in place. He would, of course, entrust certain powers to the hands of the upper echelons of the Reichssicherheitshauptamt and Sicherheitsdienst where applicable. But he always maintained as firm a grip as possible. It was one of the reasons Hitler entrusted him with the responsibility in the first place. So, no, Himmler wasn't personally rounding up Jews in Budapest or the Island of Rhodes. But he was the one who gave the order to do so and was the one who had full knowledge of why the order was being given in the first place.
As to what the Germans knew, that's a debate that has raged since before the war ended. I would argue that actual knowledge was rare enough. Certainly from a comprehensive point of view. Definitely there were would have been many would would have heard stories. There's a reason why the "death camps" were built in Poland and not Germany. But stories are rife during wartime and are often baloney irrespective of the topic and atrocity propaganda is extremely widespread. Yes, a "sizeable" number would have been aware of an atrocity here and an atrocity there. But very, very, few people would have been in possession of the amount of data that is at our fingertips these days. And, just like the allies, they would have been helpless to do anything about it. In fact, the average German was in a worse place than the might of the allied military to do anything about Nazi plans for "undesirables".
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Take a detailed read of the link provided.
The " Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland" was published by the Polish government-in-exile in 1943 and was based on documented first hand accounts of Nazi atrocities in Poland and specifically addressed to the then WW2 Allies
The document published is a full account of what was known to be happening in Poland up that time. It details known facts including details that the Jewish population of Warsaw deported from the Warsaw Ghetto were sent to to Treblinka, Bełżec, and Sobibor, which are correctly described as "extermination camps". It includes an estimate of one-third of the three million Polish Jews had already been killed which at that time actually, an underestimate.
Though the document contained extensive information on the persecution and murder of Jews in Poland - inexplicably it was not acted upon.
Some have speculated that the Allies and others found it difficult to believe the Germans were systematically exterminating Jews and did not act on the information.
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I've read that document numerous times over the last 20 years.
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I agree Himmler was at the top so had the full details and we know he made inspection tours of camps and extermination facilities and then returned and briefed Hitler although the details weren't recorded.
"There's a reason why the "death camps" were built in Poland and not Germany"
By Poland you presumably mean the territory within its prewar borders.
Auschwitz was in East Upper Silesia which was annexed by Germany and incorporated into the Reich. It was turned into an industrial centre containing all the facilities of a mid-sized town like sports, health and business/tourist accommodation. This wasn't some remote region only accessible to the SS.
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I get what you saying however the publication in 1943 of the Polish government-in-exile document titled the " Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland" was specifically addressed to the then members of the United Nations. Regardless of the politics of who was talking to who individual Allied countries were all made aware of what was happening in Poland at that time.
A response to that document included above includes a joint declaration from the following:
"The attention of the Belgian, Czechoslovak, Greek, Jugoslav, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norwegian, Polish, Soviet, United Kingdom and United States Governments and also of the French National Committee has been drawn to numerous reports from Europe that the German authorities, not content with denying to persons of Jewish race in all the territories over which their barbarous rule has been extended, the most elementary human rights, are now carrying into effect Hitlers oft-repeated intention to exterminate the Jewish people in Europe.
From all the occupied countries Jews are being transported in conditions of appalling horror and brutality to Eastern Europe. In Poland, which has been made the principal Nazi slaughterhouse, the ghettos established by the German invader are being systematically emptied of all Jews except a few highly skilled workers required for war industries. None of those taken away are ever heard of again. The able-bodied are slowly worked to death in labor camps. The infirm are left to die of exposure and starvation or are deliberately massacred in mass executions. The number of victims of these bloody cruelties is reckoned in many hundreds of thousands of entirely innocent men, women and children.
The above-mentioned governments and the French National Committee condemn in the strongest possible terms this bestial policy of cold-blooded extermination. They declare that such events can only strengthen the resolve of all freedom-loving peoples to overthrow the barbarous Hitlerite tyranny. They reaffirm their solemn resolution to insure that those responsible for these crimes shall not escape retribution, and to press on with the necessary practical measures to this end."
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By Poland, I mean the geographical location as it was in 1939. All of which was incorporated into the Reich and sub-divided into various "Gaus"...and while no, it wasn't in the Gobi desert or some such, it was still a world away from the average German. This goes doubly so during a state of war when movement was severely restricted. 99.9% of Germans wouldn't have had a clue about the likes of Auschwitz, Chelmno or Triblinka.
They may as well have been on the moon as far as most people were concerned.
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You could have fooled anyone considering your previous comment where you claim
"There's a huge difference between suspecting something, based on rumour and speculation and knowing something exactly based on facts... And much of the information that they did have was usually of a highly dubious nature, too, and very often false"
Where we know that the document
The " Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland" as published by Polish government-in-exile in 1943 was based on first hand factual reports from Poland and the detail contained therein concerning the mass slaughter of Jewish people in Poland, including the clearance of those incarcerated in the Warsaw ghettos to the "extermination camps" of Treblinka, Bełżec and Soribor.
But sure all that is "dubious" or "false" according to some ..
And all that despite this?
Joint Declaration by Members of the United Nations describing the ongoing events of the holocaust in Nazi occupied Europe
"From all the occupied countries Jews are being transported in conditions of appalling horror and brutality to Eastern Europe. In Poland, which has been made the principal Nazi slaughterhouse, the ghettos established by the German invader are being systematically emptied of all Jews except a few highly skilled workers required for war industries. None of those taken away are ever heard of again. The able-bodied are slowly worked to death in labour camps. The infirm are left to die of exposure and starvation or are deliberately massacred in mass executions. The number of victims of these bloody cruelties is reckoned in many hundreds of thousands of entirely innocent men, women and children"
Post edited by Mecanudo on0 -
Nothing in that document goes against what I'm saying with regards actual factual knowledge. Into the bargain, there were many on the allied side who read it in 1943 and dismissed it as unbelievable, because they found the contents therein too fantastic, which is hardly surprising. And just because a brochure of this type arrives into your hands, it doesn't mean that you are in possession of the full facts of a given situation. Nor does it change the fact that the allies were pretty impotent to actually do anything on the ground about it, even if everyone had believed it.
You seem to be trying, somewhat indignantly, to drive home a point with this repeated mentioning of this brochure. What is it?
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Everything in that document goes against what you're claiming.
That some to choose not to believe the diseminated and published facts at the time is now known. But that does make the account as published as you have suggested either "false" or "dubious"
The topic under discussion is the
brochuredocument as linked in my original comment. Oddly enough you now seem wish to ignore that.Post edited by Mecanudo on0 -
You need to rein in your neck and go read what I've written more carefully.
Nowhere have I said that the document in question was either "false" or "dubious". However, much of the information therein was unsubstantiated as far as the Allies were concerned and it didn't constitute actual proof, whether you like it or not. The brochure was seen as a collection of allegations and was outright disbelieved by numerous people, regardless of whether they were right or wrong to do so.
Why wouldn't it have been?
Even in 1944 there were people who disbelieved the likes of the Vrba-Wetzler too. The reasons for which are obvious due to the fact that so much atrocity propaganda gets disseminated during wartime. People at that time didn't the luxury of the indepth knowledge that we do today, thanks to the decades of study into what the Germans did during war.
In any case and irrespective of all that, I'll ask you again, what were the allies supposed to do with that information, even if they fully believed every line of it? They were already at war with Germany. What more could they have done?
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"By Poland, I mean the geographical location as it was in 1939. All of which was incorporated into the Reich and sub-divided into various "Gaus"...and while no, it wasn't in the Gobi desert or some such, it was still a world away from the average German."
Firstly Germany didn't occupy all of Poland in 1939 and secondly not all of the occupied territory was annexed into the Reich.
No it wasn't a world away from the average German (whatever that means) these were areas for German colonisation which began from the very beginning with expulsions of ethnic Poles especially following the harvest in the Spring of 1940. German volunteers moved in as soon as the Poles left to ready the vacant homesteads and among other things replace pictures of saints with ones depicting Hitler.
We know from the letters sent home by soldiers that along with the stories of conquest and the poor living conditions of Poles and Russians they also mentioned massacres of Jews. You might call these rumours but if they believed the stories of victories and conditions why would they discount stories about Jews being murdered?
They may not have known or particularly cared about the industrial killings but many were aware of the policy in the East and I'm not talking about 0.01% of Germans.
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Firstly, I know Poland wasn't fully occupied by Germany in 1939.
Secondly, We'll have agree to disagree what was considered "a world away" from the average German at the time. But this much is indisputable, Auschwitz certainly wouldn't have been on the minds of many of them.
Thirdly, I never said anything about soldiers letters being disbelieved.
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"Neck"!.
In reply to my comment that the various allies knew what was happening in Poland as highlighted in the published report by the Polish government-in-exile in 1943 titled "The Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland" specifically addressed to the the United Nations
- your take on that official document based on factual and first hand accounts was and I quote
"There's a huge difference between suspecting something, based on rumour and speculation and knowing something exactly based on facts. While the allies certainly suspected that the Nazis were carrying out terrible actions against people they considered their enemies, they weren't in full possession of much of the factual data they would need to form a solid view on the matter. And much of the information that they did have was usually of a highly dubious nature, too, and very often false.
We know that the information contained in the report was neither "False" nor "dubious" nor was it based on "rumour or speculation"
And again the point here point is not whether or not the report was believed or otherwise at the time - rather that it is now abundantly clear that the Allies were in possession of information gathered from first hand accounts of what was happening in Poland and provided by officials of the Polish in exile government
You can of course to continue to deny that all you like.
Post edited by Mecanudo on0 -
Sigh...You seem desperate for a fight while labouring under a mistaken impression at the same time.
Let me clarify..."There's a huge difference between suspecting something, based on rumour and speculation and knowing something exactly based on facts. While the allies certainly suspected that the Nazis were carrying out terrible actions against people they considered their enemies, they weren't in full possession of much of the factual data they would need to form a solid view on the matter. And much of the information that they did have was usually of a highly dubious nature, too, and very often false." was in respect to information in general, not to the specifics within the document we're talking about, which was neither "false" or "dubious" and nor have I said it was.
And once again...I'll ask you, what were the allies to do with said information even if everyone did believe every word they heard and read about what the Germans were doing in Europe?
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Why are all your posts so vehemently centered around extermination of the Jews specifically? If you get to 1000 Jew-centric posts do you get a free house on the West Bank or something?
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Jeez wet. Some posts don't deserve an answer.
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'Sigh'!
It's a discussion. I'm not the one throwing around comments about 'necks' and whatnot.
The topic explicitly detailed was the report titled the " Mass Extermination of Jews in German Occupied Poland" not a general discussion about some erstwhile propaganda which might not stand the test of time. What we know happened in Poland and as detailed in that 1943 report by the Polish government-in-exile was indeed based on fact. That some chose not to believe that account is irrelevant
Bizarrely in reply to my original comment, you went on at some length and to paraphrase how-no-one-could-have-known-anything-and/or -much-of-what-they-did-know-was-dubious-or false.
Again whether or not the facts as known were acted on or not has absolutely no relevance and is irrelevant to the fact that we know that the allies were in possession of factual and accurate information about the extermination of millions of people by the Nazis in Europe .
Y
Post edited by Mecanudo on0 -
I'm not the one throwing around comments about 'necks' and whatnot.
No, you're indignantly throwing out accusations of "denial" instead and are gagging for a fight for some weird reason, all based on your misreading of a post instead.
As for my reply to your original post, I've corrected your mistaken interpretation of what that paragraph meant. If you still don't understand it, then it's deliberately so.
Tell you what, go away and calm down as you are coming across as extremely agitated. And when you return you might be able to continue the discussion in a decent manner.
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Because "denial" is and was proffered as one of the reasons that the report was not believed. If you wish to take that otherwise that's not up to anyone else..
And btw I've deliberately not replied in kind to your ongoing and rather bizarre assertions of "indignation" "calm down" "necks" "agitated" and other barbs, rather I've simply highlighted them for what they are as stupid asides.
That you have chosen to mudy the waters and variously cast aspersions on the 1943 report through a general and irrelevant rant about "dubious" and "false" disinformation or propaganda and how-no-one-could-have-known-anything-and/or -much-of-what-they-did-know-was-dubious-or-false simply does not stand up to scrutiny.
Edit: As for the funny comment re. "decent manner", I will refer you to your various comments with other posters in this thread.
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Post edited by Mecanudo on0 -
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The thing that worries me is it is quickly reaching the point where it is out of living memory for everybody. So the Nazis become the Assyrians or the Spartans. A page in history.
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