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Will road projects speed up when the Greens are voted out?

13

Comments

  • Posts: 227 [Deleted User]


    It's convenient to the whole country, drivers and otherwise, because there's a tram linking to Heuston Station. Spare us your utterly delusional understanding of how to run a country. National hospitals are located in the heart of major cities the world over. Great Ormonde Street isn't plonked in the middle of Yorkshire for good reason. I suppose you are one of those who wanted the hospital to be located in Athlone... a place where no hospital currently exists. St. James is where the expertise already exists and the public transport exists. It's not there to suit drivers. Drivers can use public transport. Ambulances can access the hospital easily if drivers move out of the way.

    It's the 21st century people. Your 'vision' for a car dependent Ireland would be laughed away in any other country, bar maybe certain states in America. Try proposing your thoughts in any EU or liberal democracy. We're finally coming to the stage where this parochial silliness is slowly ending here too.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,663 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Not sure what you mean by the vision for a car dependent Ireland.

    I'm looking out my window in suburban Cork. There's 19 cars outside between mine and the other 3 houses I know closest to me. I can hear the N40 in the distance. There's no vision, it's already here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭LillySV


    Stay at home so, and don’t u dare fly anywhere cause that’s a lot worse than driving!



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    the national children's hospital was moved from harcourt street to tallaght, where it's currently based. so clearly a precedent for having it within shouting distance of the M50. no-one in this thread mentioned athlone before you did, so that's a straw man.

    further, you mention GOSH - that has been there for nearly two centuries, we are talking about creating a new children's hospital. also, the population of london is pretty much double the population of ireland and it has a rail network which we could never aspire to, and the vast majority of that ~10m people all live within probably 25km of the city centre. so it already has a catchment area with double the population anyway.



  • Posts: 227 [Deleted User]


    Why should it be near the M50? What about people who don't drive cars? Why must we constantly discriminate against those who can't drive or can't afford to have a car? When it was announced that the hospital would be located at St. James', loads of dopes were on the journal and other béal bocht mouthpieces wondering why the hospital wasn't being located in Athlone 'because it's right in the middle of Ireland'. This was repeated ad nauseam by people who seem to believe that any and every public service should be located in random places scattered throughout the country.

    Come back to me with other children's hospitals being built to solely suit the needs of drivers rather than evidenced-based clinical need (colocating the NCH with maternity and adult expertise) and access to the public regardless of whether they own a car or not/can drive or not.

    If you're relying on the creation of the suburban mess made of D24 in the 80s and 90s, you're as well to made a comedy sketch of it to boot.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    It's hard for me to believe that you are making these arguments in good faith. GOSH first opened its doors shortly after the Famine, when Queen Victoria had barely started her reign. People got around differently in 1852 to how they get around nowadays. And are you seriously claiming that is more convenient to drive your sick child to the train station (or driving to wait for the bus to the train station) to wait to get the train to wait to get the tram to get to the hospital, than simply driving from your front door directly to your child's appointment? Or are you claiming merely that convenience and comfort are not important to these patients?

    I wish we had the quality of road infrastructure that they have in the Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, or other liberal democracies. Separately, if making it easy to drive somewhere makes us "car-dependent", does making it easy to take a bus somewhere make us "bus-dependent"?

    It is indeed the 21st century, and what a miracle it is that the average person can afford and maintain a vehicle that lets him travel anywhere he wants in the country (far more so than trains, which is so many couldn't survive the 20th century in Ireland). We sometimes forget how lucky we are to have cars. We're certainly better off than those folks who were alive in 1852 when GOSH opened its doors.

    Yes, Ireland's emissions are a drop in the ocean. If China, India, Russia and the US won't stop pouring carbon into the atmosphere, we wouldn't make a difference to the global climate even if we reverted to a medieval standard of living overnight. Sometimes it feels like our old Catholic ways coming to the surface again, desperately looking for a sin to feel guilty about and punish (especially if it allows for the shaming of others). Car dependent Ireland arrived a long time ago, along with a massive general surge in our quality of living, so let's keep on making things better for as many people as possible in this country. That means more public transport and cycleways, and it also means better and safer roads.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Why should it be near the M50? What about people who don't drive cars?

    because if it's going to be the national children's hospital, a significant proportion of patients and families will be travelling to it from all corners of the country. and the vast majority of those be arriving by car. and i didn't realise the M50 was so far away from dublin that people in dublin who don't drive can't get to it?

    people with sick children might have a reason to not want to travel with their kids on public transport to get to hospital, either.

    it's paywalled now, but this is a good article - a doctor in james's who himself had to attend crumlin for cancer treatment, arguing that placing a children's hospital in an area with heavy traffic, was a stupid idea. FWIW, his sister is an active travel advocate.

    https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/st-jamess-a-bad-location-for-a-childrens-hospital-34793006.html



  • Posts: 227 [Deleted User]


    "Oh look, a single doctor who said something I agree with", despite medical opinion being wholly in favour of either the St. James' site or the Mater. Neither being on the M50.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Posts: 227 [Deleted User]


    Major hospitals with specific remits such as a children's hospital are still built in the heart of cities. I thought I'd remind you that there is such thing as ambulances. The biggest obstacle to ambulances is traffic. You commented earlier that we need more roads because the population is growing. Based on that logic, nobody would have decided that Paris, London, New York etc needed to move off the road to underground in the late 19th century.

    Cars are great. I have one myself. I don't use it in cities. Cars are not good for cities. That's why cities that function properly invest in alternatives that everyone can use. This is not some novel eureka thought. Cities such as London and Paris impose disincentives such as congestion charges because otherwise the city would cease to function seamlessly. Once a city is in gridlock, it ceases to function effectively, (aka the M50 every morning), so cities lose time, money, tourism and business. It also impacts the quality of life of hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people. People who move to a city expect high speed rapid transit first and foremost, not motorways. Land in cities is scarce and at a premium. Therefore, land, be it for housing, transport or otherwise, has to be utilised and developed to suit the needs of the masses, not just those privileged enough to be able to drive or afford a car. This is why European cities contrast so glaringly with those in the US. It's an ideological manifestation of values.

    Cars are great for interurban transit and rural transport. However, their individual nature is antithetical to how a city operates or should operate, which attracts and caters to a huge range of socio-economic and other needs. I've said it before, Ireland's very recent experience of dense urban living is still very slow to catch on with some, mostly those of a certain age who often have limited international experience, and especially those who naively think a rural/small town lifestyle of 2 cars with a 2 storey house can be transposed to a city.

    There's neither rhyme nor reason to your supposed logic, nor to this stupid thread. The road blitz of the 90s is over. It's over because most roads have been built. Bar the M20, N21, N24, the Donegal triangle, the N15 Sligo to Leitrim border, most roads are finished or will be finished within a matter of a few years. The notorious N5 will be effectively solved by 2024, for example. The focus needs to shift from building motorways to finalising these remaining projects, but only in tandem with a historic shift in focus away from roads and towards public and active transport. Removing bad bends on the secondary routes should also be prioritised as minor projects, eg. N71 in places, N63 Mountbellew to Roscommon, N52 through Offaly and Tipp, etc. That's it. The Greens' stance on the M20 won't have any influence on whether it's built or not. It was FG that cancelled it. It was FG that cancelled the Metro and innumerable other projects. These are the facts. The scale of cognitive dissonance among some people on here is astounding.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭markpb


    The main reason for the hospitals locations are medical, not transports. It's a consideration but not the top one.

    Within transport, the main users of the hospitals are the staff who will, in the majority, live in Dublin and surrounding counties. If the hospital is located in a central area, public transport is an option for some staff. Yes, there are shift staff who won't be able to use public transport but there are plenty of medical, admin and support staff who can. For others, walking, cycling, e-scooters, etc may be an option. If the hospital is located in suburban areas, the number of staff who would be able to use public or active transport diminishes.

    After that (purely in terms of numbers), you have visitors, vendors, parents, etc. Some of these will be able to use public and active transport, others will have to drive. If the hospital is build in a central area, you can have both. If it's built in a suburban area, you can't. Even visitors coming from outside the city have the option of using public transport for the entire trip or driving to a P&R facility and taking a train the rest of the way.

    Then (still in terms of numbers) come the regular patients. Most of these will be coming for scheduled appointments and aren't critically ill. Public or active transport may be an option, others will have to drive. My eldest daughter spent several years taking the Luas & Dublin Bus to her appointments in Crumlin.

    And lastly, the acutely or critically ill patients. Some will arrive by ambulance, others will be driven to appointments by family. No-one is denying that these groups exist or that they have to be looked after.

    If you build the hospital in a suburban area, you are forcing every one of these groups to arrive by car. That means more money spent building roads and providing parking and creates the congestion that you're trying to avoid by locating it outside of the city centre. Sit outside any busy hospital at the start of shift or the beginning of public appointment times and tell me that road access isn't a problem. That congestion means delays to ambulances. It means parents with sick children in the car will be delayed getting into the hospital and finding a parking space.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ah yeah, i understand all that; i just think that how 'clients' get to the hospital becomes a much bigger factor than with a normal hospital, when it by definition will be serving people coming from as far away as west cork or northwest donegal who will be arriving by car.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    one missed opportunity was that back in the days that the blanchardstown shopping centre was still just a concept, they were talking about a light rail system out to blanchardstown; one which i think would have served the hospital. there should be one anyway, but it might have strengthened whatever argument was there about blanch being a candidate for the NCH site.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,764 ✭✭✭lalababa


    Up de greens! One of many hopes for a cleaner , sustainable future!

    Calling a political party gouwls is untasteful, immature and a little bit Trump like. It brings political discussions to new lows. Things like mehole and leo the leak etc.



  • Posts: 227 [Deleted User]


    This 👌☝🏽

    That's the point I'm trying to make about public transport and locating services of national importance where the density of people and PT exists: it's accessible to all regardless of driving ability or means. PT is egalitarian.

    All of these people spouting about West Cork and Donegal miss that point. The bigger issue isn't why these people can't drive to hospital, it's why they have to because the public transport in their own counties is abysmal. Someone travelling from West Cork to St. James can do PT from Cork Kent all the way to the hospital, with only the change from train to tram. The journey from West Cork to Kent is the problem.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    All of these people spouting about West Cork and Donegal miss that point.

    'all of these people'? that's me, you can reply directly to me if you wish. and when you call my contributions 'spouting', you really show you're really not interested in debating politely.

    anyway yes, the public transport in northwest donegal is abysmal. pointing that out is not missing the point, that is the bloody point.

    and we're talking about sick kids here. telling parents they should get the train instead won't work.



  • Posts: 227 [Deleted User]


    Hmm, how can I reply directly to somebody by the name of 'magicbastarder'? Your excessive indulgence in emotion only proves how tenuous your argument is.

    Sick children could easily access hospital if more drivers not carrying sick children left the road and switched to PT. It's that simple. Northwest Donegal has bad public transport. Maybe one reason is because Donegal (where I'm from) makes a fine art of à la carte one-off-housism. I do know that within Donegal and the wider West of Ireland or rural Ireland generally, there's a widespread mentality that public buses are for the elderly, students and those on social welfare. To be seen getting a bus is considered by many as daft/inefficient/low class/silly/unbecoming.

    The public transport is poor everywhere outside Dublin, save random exceptions like Thurles and Athlone. Your solution is to sustain this by plonking everything next to a motorway because it suits you. That's not going to happen so deal with that fact first. Secondly, stop clogging hospitals with needless journeys to said hospitals for outpatient appointments and the like. If an outpatient is able to drive to the hospital, they're able to get the bus to it as well. They could at least park somewhere else in the town. The irony of the 'why can't we park at the hospital' brigade is that ambulances and staff are blocked too.

    You can throw out the worst made-up example of somebody being denied access to St. James' because they can't drive there and pull the grá mo chroí card by equating hospital accessed via PT = you're stopping parents driving sick kids. That's just hypothetical buinneach that amounts to nothing only emotional blackmail, something that many in Ireland thrive on as an alternative to discussing policy, especially when they have no evidence-based arguments. Come back to us with verified sources of this happening rather than hoping I and others will feel guilty because an anonymous profile told us we are somehow stopping sick children going to hospital.

    Fyi, McGinley's run frequent buses right to the heart of Dublin.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Your solution is to sustain this by plonking everything next to a motorway because it suits you.

    am done. i never said that, head off and have these imaginary arguments in your own head.



  • Posts: 227 [Deleted User]


    You want the NCH next to the M50 because it suits you. It doesn't suit everyone because not everyone drives a car, much less can afford one. Get over it, it's at St. James'. Park at the P&R and access it the same way everyone else does.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭Phil.x


    It will be a great day when salad box ryan and the crazy gang are no more.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Do you reckon the highly qualified experts on the Dolphin committee that made the recommendation didn’t think of that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,793 ✭✭✭Phil.x




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,969 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The moderators can decide that, not you. There has been a couple of pages of discussion about the hospital. I didn't bring it up.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭markpb


    More than half a billion in road projects is not enough for some FG TDs apparently. What happened to the PfG commitment to spend 2:1 in favour of public/active transport?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's not the topic i would expect would threaten the government. several of those TDs must know that next time round they won't get their seats back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,251 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The Green TD's I'm sure do know they won't be getting their seats back.

    This madness, putting restrictions on ourselves, carbon taxes and the rest will only lead to the type of mess Germany is currently in.

    It's madness.



  • Posts: 15,802 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A lot of TD's never get their seats back and a lot of TD's do, such is the nature of elections.

    Also, whether the greens are in govt or not makes little difference in terms of climate actions being taken. The last govt had a climate action plan that was thrown out by the courts as it didn't do enough and this govt was forced to come up with more solid plans and stricter implementation requirements and deadlines. This would have been done regardless of the greens being in power because we've signed up at an international level to do this.

    Its been written into current legislation that the reductions must be met and any misses are loaded onto the next target period e.g. if they plan for 10% between 2020-2025 and 2025-2030 only achieve 3% in 2020-2025 then 17% becomes the new target for 2025-2030 and plans and actions are required to be adjusted accordingly.

    So yeah, whoever is in govt will have no option but to follow through. That so few realise this, and instead like to paint the greens as some sort of boogeyman is honestly weird.

    Genuine question, who are you going to blame if the greens are not in the next govt but the climate actions continue as planned? What about the govt after that one? I ask because these are decade long plans and in some cases, multi-decade, so while there may be tweaks and modifications to the methods, this is only going one way.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,724 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    The Green TD's I'm sure do know they won't be getting their seats back.

    well, yes, but they're not the ones threatening to pull the plug.

    anyway, i can't tell which road projects are in play because i don't have a subscription, but i assume the N20 is one of them.



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