Speed pedelecs

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 12:38am #1

Hello ,

I'm new to the market of ebikes and really wanted to get bosch gen4 cx motor.

I had my heart set on a bike and was happy to get it ,but just realised its max speed is 45kph.

Suppose to be getting it on the BTW scheme ,but after reading up on things I discover that speed is just as

important as power ,which the bosch is 250W.

Am I able to get a bike with a bosch motor of 250W or does the speed dictate i cant ?

The shop I'm buying it from never mentioned anything to me about this ,which I'm suprised about.

ted1 · 29-01-2022 12:47am

45 kph on a electric bike is crazy. It lets people with no bike skills /( road awareness ) go way to fast

I suspect the 25kph will stay forever and the Gardai will be clamp down on bikes doing faster

could a bike limited to 250w reach 45kph?

lots of bikes with Bosch motors meet the legal requirements.

talk to the guys at greenaer.ie

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 12:54am

Thanks for that , didn't plan on going that fast ,just wanted a good bike because I'm 120KG.

Can't believe I wasn't told about this and only finding out reading through the forums here.

There isn't any public awareness of this as far as I can see ,I only found out because I'm trying to get

ready to start using the bike . I'm cycling many decades at this stage ,but last bike I bought 15 years ago.

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 12:57am

Btw strava has my max speed over 40kph regurlarly on my old non electric banger.

magicbastarder · 29-01-2022 1:07am

to qualify for the BTW scheme, the bike must be legally an e-bike; and the three main criteria to qualify as an e-bike are:

cannot provide assistance above 25km/h

max power output of 250W

cannot provide any power unless you are actually pedalling too.

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 1:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548691#Comment_118548691

They finalized the bike to work paperwork and never said a word .

It's an awful lot of money to be spending and possibly getting bike taken off me.

DaveyDave · 29-01-2022 2:27am

Maybe search some ebike forums and see if it can be modified to do 25kph. 250w and 25kph are fine, the issue with doing 45kph is it will kill the battery life. 45kph is a US Class 3 ebike so it's either imported or modified? Unless manufacturers are selling them for 'private' use from the factory to go around EU laws?

Are you sure the bike you're getting is definitely 45kph? Most ebikes have software limits specific for US or EU markets but are the same bikes.

Fazua motors are another good mid drive motor worth looking at if you haven't already purchased a bike.

Wishbone Ash · 29-01-2022 8:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548667#Comment_118548667

Most of us will have max speeds way above that on a normal bike on a standard ride (when conditions are appropriate) but the point ted1 was making is that it allows someone with no experience or road craft to do 45km/h when it is unsuitable to do so - eg. in a busy urban environment, on a pedestrian path etc.

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 9:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549045#Comment_118549045

hey , thanks for the info.

https://www.cube.eu/en/2022/e-bikes/urban-mobility/commuting/s-pedelec/cube-kathmandu-hybrid-45-625-greynred/

The bike is from cube and comes with break lights and number plate holder , nothing on my quote or the invoice for my job said anything about the speed but when i look again on the website , it says at the bottom of the listing not for public roads only for private roads. But the bike is advertised as a city bike ????

I was quite clear about the bike to work scheme when enquiring about the bike and sales guy over the phone recommended this bike to me.

I will see if the bike can be restricted , can't see why not if it can be unrestricted.

thanks

secman · 29-01-2022 9:50am

I would be more concerned about the issue of Road insurance with that rather than having it taken by the Guards. The "private road usage" alludes to Insurance issue ?

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 9:53am

it's not peoples fault though , there isn't clear guidlines for this stuff.

Greentree_uk · 29-01-2022 10:06am

Wouldn’t be worried about the 45kph, Tho at 120kg + bike weight 25kg you are over the recommended for this bike and that’s without extras. Similar to you in size and cycling for few years, ebike is unlikely to help with that -at least hasn’t in my case, but will help build stamina and a good way to get out and see if it’s for you. I personally would never commute any other way.

secman · 29-01-2022 10:12am

From what i have read e-bikes and e-scooters will have a cut off, most likely 25pkh top speed for them to be excluded from "mechanically driven" vehicles and therefore not requiring road insurance. I have read on Gov.ie that the more powerful ones will be treated as "mechanically driven" and will definitely require road insurance. Took me all of 5 min on Google to find that😁

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 10:13am

I would love to know if we could register a bike like that here and how do we measure it's power.

Surely the bike won't have the same power if an eighty year old woman is cycling it.

All this is down to licencing and nothing to do with power really , if you buy a bike like this you should be able to register it and only able to register with a licence.

magicbastarder · 29-01-2022 10:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549045#Comment_118549045

Also, kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity. So doing 45km/h means you're carrying nearly 4 times the energy, not twice as much, compared to doing 25km/h.

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 11:18am

This bike doesn't go anywhere near 45 unless you cycle like the clappers.

it's my first bike to try but you can feel there is more than cadance sending your input ,i changed gears and got no support , it's very intelligent how the motor works

magicbastarder · 29-01-2022 11:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118548703#Comment_118548703

it's not illegal for them to sell it to you, as the bike itself is not an 'illegal' item. it's the use of it which is governed by law - under law, it's a moped, so you could in theory be stopped and done for using an MPV without a licence, insurance, etc.

also, it doesn't qualify for the cycle to work scheme as only vehicles legally classed as bikes are eligible. again, it's your responsibility to make sure you're complying with the law, not the shop's.

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 1:18pm

It doesn't look like a moped, if i bought it in a motorbike shop i might question things .

Muddy as hell this whole thing , these motors only seem to be getting more powerful.

Ubbquittious · 29-01-2022 1:25pm

250w is not much. I have one with 800w and even that isn't great, though it's a hub motor so can't use the gears. You could always buy a normal bike & convert yourself and go 45kph if you want to, though I would hate to hit a large pebble at that speed

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 1:30pm

I don't want to go at speed ,i like being able to take in things as I'm cycling . When I go over 25kph ,my ears do get noisey and can't hear anything.

my average speed over 3 hours is usually only 20kph on my current bikes .

If i want to go fast I'll just buy an electric motorbike.

DaveyDave · 29-01-2022 3:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549798#Comment_118549798

250w is plenty. Most of us wouldn't be able to average that power. With a rider's input of 100-200w you'll have a combined 350-450w. That's what professional cyclists would average.

I'm 110kg, 250w has me flying off at a green light and pushes me up hills with ease. Anything more would take away from the fact it's a bicycle, not a moped.

Esel · 29-01-2022 9:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118549779#Comment_118549779

It doesn't look like a moped

The number plate holder was a bit of a giveaway.

It would definitely seem to not qualify for the scheme, apart from needing licence, tax and insurance to be legal on the road.

Briain O Loinsigh · 29-01-2022 11:47pm

The lad said it was a German bike so that was there for Germany. I didn't pick out the bike i was looking for a kathmandu with a gen 4 motor and that was the one shown to me. The one i wanted for less money is available in November if I'm lucky.

The gen 4 is widely available with 25kmh .

People should be made aware of the regulations before buying.

I'll just have to get one with a gen 3 motor , which i don't want.

DaveyDave · 30-01-2022 1:13am

What is it about the Bosch motor that you're looking for out of curiosity?

Briain O Loinsigh · 30-01-2022 8:31am

I just thought I'd get the torquiest motor to cope with weight and it would last longer.

I like that bosch gen4 motors don't throw out torque straight away, so the drivetrain isn't under too much pressure.

Originally wanted to get Yamaha 85nm motor in giant, but they seem to throw out torque straight away ,id imagine the chain and cassette wouldn't last that long.

The bike i chose on this thread had great breaks , forks and the sensors don't allow too much pressure on the drive train , perfectly suited for heavy usage.

DaveyDave · 30-01-2022 9:30am

If you don't want full power and torque immediately you can just use a lower assistance mode. A lot of bikes have 4-5 assist modes, if you just stay out of the higest level of assistance you shouldn't have to worry about the power/torque kicking in straight away.

Most motors don't give 100% of the selected power at all times anyway so if you're taking it easy while pedaling you won't be getting the max power of that mode. Medium power on my bike is 210w and I need to put in 300w which is a fair bit of power. If I'm just taking it easy that same mode might only give me 100w or 150w depending on how hard I'm cycling so I don't need to worry about the motor pushing me faster than I want to go as it's not giving me 210w continuously unless I'm pushing hard. The lower the assistance level, the slower the ramp up time also so it's more gradual on the power putting less stress on everything.

Briain O Loinsigh · 30-01-2022 10:21am

Thanks for that ,I should probably just get the gen3 motor. I think it's quieter than the gen4 and slightly more efficient , using boschs range calculator.

loyatemu · 31-01-2022 2:02pm

you might want to cover up this detail on the frame.

I've seen a couple of people going around on speedelecs locally, I doubt the guards would pay much attention to anything that still looks like a bike as opposed to a moped. The risk is if you have an accident that the guards get involved in and then they look into your "fancy bicycle"; you could get done for driving uninsured, without a correct license etc and you'd probably be held liable for the accident whether it was your fault or not as you're "driving" an unregistered "moped".

CantGetNoSleep · 01-02-2022 10:44am

For the moment yes you are unlikely to get caught - but in countries where different electric things have really taken off (bikes, scooters etc), there can be check points where it is easy enough to measure the max speed of whatever you are riding on using some gadget. Doubt the guards even have one for now but you never know two or three years down the line. On the other hand, I've worked in Switzerland where speed-pedelecs were a really popular choice for commuting with requirements (registration, helmet mandatory, tax & insurance - although this was pretty cheap from what I heard)

magicbastarder · 01-02-2022 11:05am

i'd say a speed pedelec wouldn't make that much difference commuting in a built up area. cars are capable of a lot faster but still go slower than your average cyclist in dublin rush hour, and i'd be wary about commuting on a bike with that much power on greasy roads. do i recall someone from here coming a cropper when the back wheel spun out on road markings on a greasy day?

Ferris · 01-02-2022 3:25pm

Some skewy information on here.

Bosch speed pedelecs basically have the same motor as a 25kph limited ebike, the limit is just not set in the programming. An illegally derestricted Bosch bike will do 40-45kph, possibly with different gearing.
I have seen speed pedelecs on the roads, they are obvious due to the brake lights, indicators and reg. plate space. A couple of things though - legally they are a MPV (mechanically propelled vehicle) in Irish law so they require a drivers licence, tax and insurance. Also you are not allowed in cycle lanes with them
I spun a back wheel out on a greasy white line, it was at low speed. The line was newly painted and I was being thick. Generally the Bosch type mid drives behave like a normal bike - just very easy to push to 25kph
The gen 3&4 are essentially the same motor, just different programming.
Chain wear can be an issue but I would say cleanliness and oiling are far more important than restricting torque. Also letting off the pedals when changing gear saves the chain big time in my experience. Bosch drivetrain should cut power for gear changes but its not as effective as doing it yourself. I swap over my chain/cassette/front cog every 3-4 months or so. I do it myself - its easy.
I wouldn't get a speed pedelec in Ireland purely because you shouldn't use one on a cycle lane. I'd rather just get a Moped / Scooter. It'd be easier to insure and has more speed and better brakes and still has tiny running costs.
The CX drive is pointless for a 25kph limited bike, in Turbo it'll just set off like a scalded cat and you 'll hit the limiter before you make it out of the junction. Even the active line plus will do that. CX is for climbing a 1 in 3 dirt track or pushing a cargo bike (or for a s-pedelec)

All IMO of course but i hope it helps

Speed pedelecs

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