Do men need a license to be allowed socialise (MOD NOTE IN OP)

Wanderer78 · 17-01-2022 11:36AM

would my insurance go down, if i got this license?

elperello · 17-01-2022 11:39AM

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cucnRlLmllL3JhZGlvMS9wb2RjYXN0L3BvZGNhc3Rfd2tlbmRvbm9uZS54bWw/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly9wb2RjYXN0LnJhc3NldC5pZS9wb2RjYXN0cy9hdWRpby8yMDIyLzAxMTYvMjAyMjAxMTZfcnRlcmFkaW8xLXdrZW5kb25vbmUtbmV3c3BhcGVycF9jMjIwNTEzODdfMjIwNTE0MDBfMjMyXy5tcDM?hl=en-IE&ved=2ahUKEwiiv8KkyLj1AhU1QkEAHTKED-EQjrkEegQIAhAL&ep=6

I'm just linking to the podcast of yesterday's show so people can go and listen to what Sam McC actually said yesterday.

It's at about 39 mins left on the Newspaper Panel segment.

As I said in this thread yesterday he is clearly emphasising the educational value of the 12 lessons rather than saying all men need a licence to go out socialising.

I think that even though his message was somewhat unclear he did us a service, perhaps unintentionally, in providing a space for discussion that doesn't focus on the tragic events in Tullamore.

It's been one of the most useful discussions I've seen on AH for a long time.

HerrKuehn · 17-01-2022 11:40AM

I think we will come to regard Sam McConkey's comments as the official end of the pandemic. I was wondering what these academics who put themselves into the media spot light would do when the pandemic was over and now I know. It is the most ridiculous suggestion I have ever heard and the fact that he was not called out on it speaks volumes.

I think ultimately the media focus on all men will be counterproductive. It creates an us vs them situation. I mean fair enough focusing on men as a group if they belong to misogynistic groups or organisations as that would be a choice. Individual men can really only be responsible for their own behavior and the behavior of their sons, I don't know how to be responsible for other people.

If women want men to call out guys on the bus or whatever, there needs to be a situation where law abiding people are protected from violent scumbags. That doesn't exist at the moment. If you are on the #13 bus in Dublin and there are guys smoking cannabis and cat calling women, if you say something you risk getting a bottle in the face. If that happens and it goes to court, we will of course learn that the guy has a long rap sheet, there will be a sob story about a family death recently as mitigating circumstances. He will get a suspended sentence and probably have to pay a miserable 2k or something he could scrape together. That would be the expectation anyway. Maybe the minister for justice Helen McEntee might have something she can do here? Law abiding men fear the unpunished violence from scumbags too. There needs to be a clear change in policy around sentencing. A suspended sentence is just a slap on the wrist.

Cyclingtourist · 17-01-2022 11:41AM

This stupid intervention shows what a technocratic government could look like.

zv2 · 17-01-2022 11:42AM

ps When I was 5 years old in school this is what they were teaching young boys and girls-

_____________________________

What are little boys made of?

Snips, snails

And puppy-dogs' tails

That's what little boys are made of

What are little girls made of?

Sugar and spice

And everything nice

That's what little girls are made of.

_____________________________

Evil.

Nozebleed · 17-01-2022 11:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488145#Comment_118488145

sure wasnt a poor innocent romanian lad lifted by the police in tullamore and his so called violent history blasted all over social media and the rte..absolute disgrace. Trial by media & Feminist Hysteria.

rightmove · 17-01-2022 11:53AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488274#Comment_118488274

nail on head

Cyclingtourist · 17-01-2022 12:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488352#Comment_118488352

There's an element of the 'no one intervened' when someone is assaulted on the street. Sometimes people do intervene but other times people stand back either because of fear or they just don't understand what it is they're observing but it's always easy to criticise them after the event.

From my own experience of reporting a minor assault to the Guards the first question you are asked is 'how far do you want to take this complaint?'. The reality is that the Guards don't want to get involved and 'zero tolerance' is just a platitude.

NaFirinne · 17-01-2022 12:02PM

All I hear on the news is how the men of Ireland need to change and I agree with that sentiment.

The men of Ireland need to start holding the goverenement accountable for the soft touch justice system that is in this country that allows repeater offenders off with mere slap on the wrist.

17-01-2022 12:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488412#Comment_118488412

How far do you want to take it, means are you actually going to go to court and give evidence. It's amazing the amount of people who report these things and then back out, wastes everyone's time.

HerrKuehn · 17-01-2022 12:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488439#Comment_118488439

The suspended sentence at the end is the real waste of time. Might as well make the crime legal, it would save a lot hassle.

growleaves · 17-01-2022 12:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488267#Comment_118488267

The phrase 'religion is poison/toxic' is something C. Hitchens lifted from Mao Zedong.

NIMAN · 17-01-2022 12:19PM

Why has it taken 3 days for this suspect in hospital to be interviewed (apparently its to happen today)?

Unless he's in a coma he should have been answering questions a lot quicker than that.

ahappychappy · 17-01-2022 12:20PM

I was surprised someone so educated (Sam) could say something so daft. I am in the privileged position to be a mother to two sons - teen and near teen - and these conversations worry me. I know I have two great young fellas that are kind, funny and emotionally intelligent. They have a father (divorced) who provides an excellent role model, a granddad and uncles who do the same.

My eldest asked me did I have negative experiences - so I was honest. I dont attend classes I want to because I would be walking home late in the dark alone, I dont go for a run early- I pay attention to where I am morning noon and night if in areas where there are groups of teens/lads who are vandalizing etc in case they turn on me. I organise my social life risk assessing where to go - when there I am likely to say I have a boyfriend to get rid of unwanted attention - because me saying sorry not interested has in the past involved a snarling aggressive response.

I told him of my experiences as a teenager - 13/14 years of age and adult men yelling what they want to do with you and commenting on your body. If you had the audacity to call them out - you get called a dry sh** and where is your sense you humor. When I worked as a lounge girl I was shown by one of the barmaids how to charm my way out of unwanted hands - seriously that was the language used - charm my way out of an assault - unwanted hands is assault. I was told in several jobs in the '00s to wear a skirt - amazingly my brain and ability to do my job doesn't increase with my legs being cold but hey ho!

This was our reality, have things changed I hope so but I still reckon girls get unwanted attention and are thought to manage it! I know it is not all men, but I nor any other woman doesn't know which man.

Women are asking all men to pay attention - and be allies to the women in your life and we will be allies to the men in ours.

17-01-2022 12:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488503#Comment_118488503

Really? How much so you know about Garda investigation?

Such as the law about questioning people, how much time there is to question someone, when you can and cannot question someone, who else should be present when questioning a suspect?

I'd suggest not too much.

cannonballTaffyOjones · 17-01-2022 12:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483770#Comment_118483770

He/him/his

“When you're used to privilege, equality feels like oppression”.

#bekind

Always the same...

ALWAYS

Cyclingtourist · 17-01-2022 12:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488439#Comment_118488439

I know what it means and why they ask. In my own case I just asked that they be contacted (I gave a car reg number) and warned. Couple of weeks later the Guard phoned me and said the person wasn't answering the phone, apparently it never occurred to them to call to the house. I got the message alright about 'zero tolerance'.

17-01-2022 12:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488547#Comment_118488547

There is absolutely nothing and no law that allows Gardai to call to their house to 'warn them '

You either want to make a criminal complaint or you don't.

BrianD3 · 17-01-2022 12:30PM

Just listened to the podcast there - McConkey was the third guest in the segment and had 15 minutes to gather his thoughts before speaking. He wasn't bounced by Brendan O'Connor into saying something stupid.

The driving licence/lessons analogy is bonkers. Driving a car is a privilege. In contrast, there is (in theory in the case of males) legal protection against discrimination or incitement to hatred based on gender.

The fact that this nonsense would never be implemented is irrelevant.

As already stated, if he said what he did about women, Muslims, Travellers or pretty much any other group, there would be serious questions over his position in RCSI.

Also, Alison O'Connor and others using this murder to rant about everything from the gender pay gap to Pormarnock Golf Club. Also wolf whistling - is this somehow a "gateway drug" to murder. The whole thing smacks of despicable opportunism. How many journalists and NGOs have raised their profiles and will ultimately, generate/maintain income for themselves on the back of this.

El_Duderino 09 · 17-01-2022 12:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488503#Comment_118488503

Depends on what kind of hospital he's in. If he's in a psychiatric hospital (snip) then there might not have been any point interviewing him until he was stable. No point interviewing someone if they're having a psychotic break or are delusional or whatever.

modsnip no speculation on an active case please

Cyclingtourist · 17-01-2022 12:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488564#Comment_118488564

I did make a written complaint. So you're telling me the Guards can't physically approach an individual who has been the subject of a written complaint?

I find that hard to believe.

17-01-2022 12:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488510#Comment_118488510

This was our reality, have things changed I hope so but I still reckon girls get unwanted attention and are thought to manage it! I know it is not all men, but I nor any other woman doesn't know which man.

Which is the case for anything that involves other people.

No doubt you've had negative experiences (varied) with other women.. you have no idea when meeting a woman whether she's going to do the same as those women in your past. Just as I have no idea how any person is going to behave before they do so.

Women are asking all men to pay attention - and be allies to the women in your life and we will be allies to the men in ours.

Would you consider your husband to be oblivious to what it's like for women? No doubt you've told him some of your experiences, and fears. The simple truth is that most men already know something about what it's like because they have sisters, girlfriends, or just female friends who have spoken their experiences. I'm in my mid-40s and I can recall dozens of conversations with women about them being threatened in some way or another...Just as I've seen loads of articles either online or from the media, raising the problems of violence or harassment directed towards women.

There is this... idea... that "men" are oblivious to what happens. We're not. However, I've yet to see any realistic/practical solution to it. What is it that men are supposed to do about it?

Most men are already allies of women.

rightmove · 17-01-2022 12:41PM

When is anyone in the media going to stop the knee jerk witch hunt of men for pretty much everything!

sekiro · 17-01-2022 12:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488310#Comment_118488310

I wonder does the idea that violent crime can somehow be taught out of society take hold because most of the people having, certainly leading, the conversation tend to have a decent education? Like they haven't really thought that a lot of people wouldn't pay attention to the lessons or wouldn't be able to pass the test because they just can't learn. What would we end up doing with people who simply don't absorb the content of the lessons?

It feels kind of like you have people coming out of social studies classes and they are thinking "well I learned my worldview at college and I am totally right about everything so if we just taught people how to think the same way I was taught then the world would be a better place".

I think a much more appropriate starting point for things like this would be to understand exactly why the specific people who commit these kinds of crimes do that. It's not even clear how rare or common some of these events that people talk about actually are. You'd need to look at case studies and then ask if it's realistic that a few classes in high school at the age of 15 or 16 would prevent someone from committing a horrendous crime when they are in their 40s. What if for some people violence is linked to mental health issues and those issues develop after the classes have been taken?

People in government positions talk about "zero tolerance" but what does that even mean? We have people walking around sometimes with 100s of convictions so obviously there is actually quite a lot of tolerance of crime and criminals and scumbags in society. It's possible for an individual in this country to smash someone with a glass bottle, never spend a day in prison, and then spend the rest of their life living off government hand-outs. What does "zero tolerance" even mean in that context? If you strike a woman you'll be locked up forever? You'll never be able to claim welfare? Or you'll just have to attend some classes?

This is an example of violence against a woman where we obviously are not taking a "zero tolerance" approach. 10k and an apology letter and you're not even spending a day in prison. Physiotherapist who glassed woman in face in Dublin pub receives suspended sentence - Independent.ie

freshpopcorn · 17-01-2022 12:48PM

Teaching basic kindness and respect is important from an early age.

From my understand Ashling Murphys family asked for privacy now I know the media needs to report news however there was no need to film/photograph them walking along the canal bank yesterday.

*They may have got permission of course.

rossie1977 · 17-01-2022 01:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488625#Comment_118488625

The knee jerk reaction happens everywhere though...

Imagine the perpetrator was arabic or black what the reaction would be. This thread would have ten times more replies for one!

Shao Kahn · 17-01-2022 01:10PM

This wasn't a man that killed that poor woman, it was a monster.

Most men in our society would have ran to this woman's defense if they had been on that stretch of canal that day. (as would most women too I'm sure)

I don't see why the tragic death of a young woman, needs to be turned into a crusade for other people's agendas? Would Aisling Murphy want this? Do these brain dead talking heads in the media even give a damn about her?

I very much doubt it, as this is simply a convenient vehicle for their own warped ulterior motives!

RIP Aisling.

starkid · 17-01-2022 01:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483914#Comment_118483914

so just by discussing it, it makes you out to be a victim? yes thats a great way to have discourse.

the fact it was said on RTE by a prominent person is worrying. if you can´t see the gradual shifts over time then you need to wake up a little. its not an immediate thing. its real world stuff. you can blithely say oh its just some crank on radio etc.

but these are real things. and they are clearly affecting human culture. obviously there is some good to come out of the bad things. many men have changed mindsets after the metoo movement and the court case here. its a gradual thing and hopefully it continues. however villifying every single man is tiresome.

and you are at it. you just shut down discussion by basically stating any man talking about this is playing the victim. utter bullshit.

men must do more. i don´t think anyone disputes that. its still a patriarchy. but we are getting closer to breaking the barriers. a first female us president might be a sledgehammer to it opening. i´m not responsible for my forefathers short sightedness when it comes to women and their role in society. but i can admit that women have right to feel aggrieved. they were chattel for centuries upon centuries.now i see women as my equal. but by trying to totally right those wrongs, you could easily flip it the other way. we need balance and we need proper discourse about all these things. and as you rightly point out, most women would say this is bullshit.

but saying that its a bit worrying a prominent talking head is talking about licenses is not dismissing women nor their real fear of stuff like this. i mean some people say make misogony a hate crime. its great in theory, not so much in reality. we need to strive for an equal and balanced society.

for me its alot of hypocrisy. where are the people taking a stand against the countries who are still basically medieval with this stuff?

i think peoples main issue with all of this is the illogical nature of it all. how do you end crime? cause thats basically what people are saying. educating men is a great way of going, and will change some of the distasteful stuff even more. yet i think its clear that after all that there will always be violent men. and indeed violent women to a much lesser extent.

and how do you square the likes of Malcolm Carthur or Larry Murphy walking free with it all?

there is a tonne of issues surrounding all of this. again dismissing it with the idea that even discussing it as being insensitive or playing the victim is lazy.

educate men till the cows come home. but you won´t change things without a clockwork orange style intervention, the desctruction of consumer capitalism, a reversal of the increasing sexualisation of our culture year in year out or a really harsh system that goes against the liberal individualistic society that we have. also we would need to really ramp up the clash of civilisation. the hypocrisy around Islam is easy to see here. its racist to call it out but their misogony is ok? which is it.

tldr: so yeah Sam talking **** on radio doesn´t really matter until you reealise that every change for better and worse has come from public discourse through mediums like this. so instead of a license it might be a full on mandated civil course. again great in theory. not so much in practise because you have unbalanced society and divided it. and by discussing that and trying to criticise that, i´m not playing the victim. men can be bastards and we need to do more. but how much more, and what more needs to be properly discussed. culture wars are happening, and its easy to dismiss them as twitter echo chambers. but some prominent thinkers do think future wars and strife will be wars of sex, race, age, religion. so lets strive for equality and balance, not a reversal of the wrongs of yesteryear.

but most of all we do need to accept that society is still a male dominated one and that needs to change. women shouldn´t have to put up with misogony. women jokes, sexism, lecherous creeps, wolf whistles, objectification. hopefully we can get there. i can see the issue has had on my daughter and partner. this is a male problem and men must do more.

Cyclingtourist · 17-01-2022 01:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488763#Comment_118488763

But we don't know as of now who the 'perpetrator' was. No one is even under arrest for this crime as I post this. We presume that it's a male but beyond that we know virtually nothing at present.

EDit · 17-01-2022 01:17PM

Pretty disgusting that the murder in Tullamore has been hijacked and turned into a discussion on gender-based violence in the absence of any explanation of what actually happened. As far as I know, no-one of any gender has been charged with, let alone convicted of the offence. Also, we dont yet know the circumstances behind the attack… for all we know, the attacker was under a drug-induced psychotic episode and would have murdered the first person they met on the greenway regardless of gender. Surely all the hand-ringing and commentary can wait until we have details of what happened? Must be heartbreaking for family to see all this shite on the web and in the news.

Do men need a license to be allowed socialise (MOD NOTE IN OP)

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