Dublin Metrolink - future routes for next Metrolink

It's still quite difficult getting around this new boards.ie arrangement - I can't really see how it's an improvement, especially if you want to quote somebody. But, hopefully they are getting there.

Catinabox: Population density around Glasnevin isn't significantly lower than at Drumcondra, perhaps slightly, but not significantly.

Strassenwo!f: Despite you saying there was no difference, it has been categorically shown on this board, in the last few days, that the population density in Drumcondra is about 40% higher than it is at Glasnevin, and the population is also considerably higher. A moderator says that the density issue will eventually take care of itself: this seems unlikely, to me, when much of the normal catchment area you'd expect around a station is made up of a very large graveyard which is probably going to remain there for the life of this metro, but we shall see.

Catinabox: Engineering wise, Drumcondra is a worse place to put it, it either involves significantly more CPO activity, including those businesses you talk of, or shutting down a main road for a significant amount of time. Neither of those two options are possible. It's also possible to mine out the station, but seeing as they're avoiding that at all costs, including demolishing an apartment block in a housing crisis, then that's not happening either.

Strassenwo!f: Many metro stations, in many metro systems I've seen, have stations which are built under roads. Most of the ones I've seen were built by restricting (not closing) a section of main road for a period of time during construction, then restricting another bit during the later phase. All quite normal in construction of a metro. It should be quite straightforward, and I would certainly query why such construction can be done in many other cities, yet in Dublin it is deemed to be, by the poster Catinabox, 'Not Possible'.

I'm afraid I do seem to get the impression that the metrolink project is being broadly run by engineers, who naturally look for the easiest engineering solution, like the Glasnevin idea, even if it involves cannabilisation of the LUAS. The urban planners are not having much of a say here, or if they are, they seem to be doing little with it.

There is a lot of space beside Marlborough Street, in the grounds of the Model School, and I wonder if this has ever been seriously looked at in the process of designing the metrolink.

My feeling is that the best route for the metrolink project would be via Drumcondra: there are just two north-south rail corridors into the city on the northside, namely the northern DART line and the Green LUAS- which will hopefully be extended to Finglas. An approximation of the old metronorth route would sit very correctly between those two lines, with a station at Drumcondra. Indeed, that would be almost equidistant between both those other north-south corridors, and very efficient from the point of view of passenger uptake.

Now that the Midland Line is being used, I would like to see a shift of the original metronorth plan, which had a station north of the current Drumcondra station (the Midland line wasn't being used when that plan came out), to a metro station in Drumcondra between the two overground rail lines, and another station built in Drumcondra on the Midland line.

Drumcondra has a very significantly higher population than the area around Glasnevin Junction. A station between the two overground lines at Drumcondra would thus be suitable for overground rail-metrolink interchange, and would have a much higher local population for uptake of all three lines (2 overground, 1 metro) than Glasnevin would.

There is an argument that the next stage of such a route should be to the station box at the Mater Hospital which was built as a proposed early stage of the metronorth project. (It's certainly not going to be used by metrolink, as planned).

I would, however, not do that, even if it also means, like the planned metrolink, that the money used in construction of that box goes down the swanny. It has always seemed to me that Mountjoy Square and its environs could do with rehabilitation, and it is a big square. There are significant differences in elevation between Mountjoy Square and the river, so a station would probably need to be deep there. But that's okay: it would be dug up, probably quite deeply, a station would be built, then it would be filled back in again. Over a couple of years you could create a location with a rapid transport station with ready access to many important locations in that part of the city, like the Mater, and have a fine park with recreational facilities and places for quiet on top. It might even be deep enough to allow an underground car park, which could make the environment event better.

Then to the Model School, which is adjacent to Marlborough Street and opposite the Pro-Cathedral.

There is loads of unused space there; it could perhaps be dug up, with minimal disruption, for a metro station, and then it could be returned to its current layout; it would be about 150 metres from the main body of O'Connell Street (let's say the spire) - i.e., much closer than the current metrolink proposal, right down at the end of the street, would be; and it would have a much better connection with the LUAS Red line, perhaps 150 metres, versus the 400-500 metre connection, currently being billed by the metrolink planners as an 'easy connection' between metro and LUAS.

A station at Mountjoy Square - in the example given - would be about a 600 metre walk from the Mater Hospital. From the LUAS Green line, the Mater is about 400 metres. A 1 km gap. So if, for example, you're a nurse who lives in Lucan and takes a bus into the city, there should be no difficulty in finding the right mode of transport to whichever end of the Mater is most suitable. The proposed metrolink route is very much doubling down on the Berkeley Road end, and thus, inevitable cannibalisation.

Mountjoy Square itself is not a major destination. But it is a central point for a lot of residences in the city, places like Mountjoy Square itself, the top end of Gardiner Street, Fitzgibbon Street, Hardwicke and Temple Streets, parts of the North Circular Road, and I don't think it's a stretch to see it as a local metro station for a lot of Summerhill or Portland Row. Much has been done to improve Mountjoy Square over the years - and it really shows - but it still, I feel, has more potential.

I was interested in this comment, from the Irish Times, posted on the Metrolink thread:

Sir, – When the tunnel boring machine, which is to be assembled at significant cost for the central portion of the proposed MetroLink, has arrived at St Stephen’s Green, it should direct itself towards Leeson Street, continue under the Grand Canal, under Upper Leeson Street and Morehampton Road, under Donnybrook, under the Dodder and emerge beyond Donnybrook garage, where the line can be elevated over the dual-carriageway median and continue to connect with the existing Green line at Leopardstown.

This route can both address capacity concerns on the existing Green line and provide useful tram connectivity to a portion of the city and institutions not served at present: Donnybrook stadium, RTÉ, St Vincent’s Hospital, UCD, and Stillorgan village.

When considering the rail network as a network, it also seems difficult to understand the logic in not connecting MetroLink to the mainline rail service near Donabate or Malahide: the termination of rail services at park-and-ride facilities can only continue our over-reliance on cars. – Is mise,

PAUL ARNOLD,

Ranelagh,

Dublin 6.

I am with Mr Arnold in parts of this, and the overall plan to build a rail route along the N11 is good, but we would differ in implementation and timing.

The N11 has the current infrastructure for probably the best bus services in the country (buslanes, 46A, etc). There is no urgency to change it into anything else while other parts of the city need better transport. On the southside of the city it seems obvious, to me, that the proposed metrolink route needs to be changed so that it would eventually go to the southwest - in other words forget about the St. Stephen's Green to Charlemont bit, and replace it with a section focused on the southwest of the city.

As I have said to this board several times before, I think the metrolink should be envisaged as extending southwest towards a stop near the top of Camden Street, and then split into (i) a line towards Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Firhouse, Knocklyon and, eventually, Tallaght, and (ii) a line towards Harold's Cross, Kimmage and, eventually, Walkinstown Cross. The population figures, and population density figures, in those areas, in comparison to those along the leafy LUAS Green line, support this as a priority.

When that has been broadly done, the city could start on Mr Arnold's N11 plan. It should be very easy to build a decent tram/metro line along the N11, with overpasses or underpasses at important junctions, to, say, Cherrywood, and with a tunnel section from, say, Donnybrook, to St. Stephen's Green. From there - with experience of building underground lines at that stage - the city will be only a hop, skip and a jump from incorporating the N11 route and the southside Green Line into a metro tunnel towards Broadstone.

This would give Dublin, eventually, a metro line between a terminus in the north and metro termini in points in the southwest; and a metro between points in the southeast and a point in the northwest, but to be further developed. With the interchange for all of those lines to be in, say, St. Stephen's Green.

This is complete nonsense.

You need service/emergency/evacuation walkways if you are in a tunnel. If you are overground, and there is an emergency, like a fire, you scramble over the barrier and run towards safety.

There are no specified service/emergency/evacuation walkways on either of the LUAS lines, as far as I'm aware. Or the DART. Or any overground rail services in Ireland, or indeed anywhere.

It is total bs to suggest that you would ever need to reduce the N11 to just one lane, at any point. As far as I remember it's mostly three lanes, sometimes four, and there are bits with a hard shoulder.

In any case, what Mr Arnold wrote about an N11 metro in the Irish Times could and should surely be done, at some point. I'd guess that a properly developed metro/LUAS, along the N11 and with a tunnel for the central bits from, say, Donnybrook inwards, would get a person into St. Stephens Green in about 28-30 minutes from Cherrywood.

I think Mr Arnold's suggestion should be parked, for the moment. Doable - yes; Desirable - yes; Politically expedient - no, not right now.

I really don't think we need to expend any effort, at this stage, and on this thread, to the notion of a metro/LUAS along the N11.

But, for what it's worth, I do think it would eventually be a good idea to develop an N11 route: you've got about a 7 km gap between rail lines heading into the city, namely DL (DART) and Dundrum (LUAS), and then about 7.5 between Dundrum (LUAS Green) and Tallaght (LUAS Red). From what I've seen, the broad thrust of developed European cities, of a comparable size and density, has been to develop a tram or metro line about 2 km away from the neighbouring one.

Thus, Dublin would develop the metrolink towards the southwest - to Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure, Rathfarnham, etc., eventually to Tallaght, and would reduce the Dundrum - Tallaght gap, to the city, to something close-ish to the norms seen in developed cities.

And, eventually, Dublin would develop a tram/metro route along the N11, reducing that gap between lines into the city to around 3-3.5 km.

I don't know if that N11 part would mostly be elevated: if it were, those T-shaped concrete pieces used for elevation of the LUAS over the major junction at Leopardstown would be useful. If it's at street level, staggered stops would be good, so that you have a stop in one direction on one side of a crossroad, and a stop in the other direction on the other side of the crossroad. This seems to be very efficient for use of road space.

And, yes, a fence about 1 metre high, seems to be appropriate to protect potential passengers on a tram/metro platform from neighbouring cars.

There is, of course, much to learn about building a tram/metro line along a trunk road like the N11. A project like that should be a long way down the road, and the information will eventually be there to do it properly.

Yes, tom1ie, you are entirely right to ask this.

For my part, I was - in my last post - attempting to give my little answer to some questions which emerged in the kerfuffle aroused by a recent article in the Irish Times, and the subsequent letters.

At the stately pace with which rail transport is developed in Ireland, it is my guess that it will be 50 years before a potential rail line along the N11 will be being considered. I will, sadly, not be involved in that discussion.