Overpopulation

mary 2021 · 08-01-2022 8:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118404961#Comment_118404961

that is the best comment as a person who visits the elderly with a therapy dog my experience is horrific. They are awful places we should allow people to have a living will and to opt out of life if they want to . If i had to go into a nursing home i would opt out. The treatment of the old people is not nice at all. they are merely waiting to die and someone is capitalizing on that they are truly awful, warm but awful, especially the dementia wards, just zombies in nappies being ignored. I was truly upset the first time i visited and very few nice irish people caring for these old ladies & gents all from other countries with very little real empathy for the patients, these folk who built up our country its totally selfish to dump old people in homes./

08-01-2022 8:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118440561#Comment_118440561

1) You don’t understand what decoupling means. This is problematic if you are going to discuss decoupling.

2) More people doesn’t mean less food. The population grew by 700% in the 20C, leaving the world population with more food grown on less land. in fact there were more obese people at the end of the century than all people at the start. The population will only grow by 20% from now, mostly in the poorest part of the world.

3) in most of the world populations are falling or starting to fall, and that fall will be exponential. Only in the poorest parts will it rise and only for a few decades.

Most of your rhetoric is from the 1970s but the world has changed.

i am not sure how you are going to implement your desired population reduction plan either, it seems the brunt of whatever you want to achieve will have to be in sub Saharan Africa.

08-01-2022 8:39pm

Anyway here’s an example from Italy.

https://www.thelocal.it/20211127/italys-population-in-crisis-as-nation-is-set-to-shrink-by-a-fifth/

A 20% reduction by 2070 is in fact only the start of the matter, there’s probably no way that Italy will ever recover given present trends. No country where the fertility rate has dropped below 2 has ever recovered, and anyway you would need couples to have 3 or more kids to make up for two generations of < 2. All that getting back to a tfr of 2.1 will do is stop the decline but not get back to where it was. Most European countries, even with immigration, will see their populations halve or more over the next century.

Markcheese · 08-01-2022 10:06pm

The established way to reverse a countries population increase is development and education ( especially female education ) ,and lower child mortality levels -

The problem is that coincides with an increase in CO2 emissions ...

There are big population increases expected in Africa .. but currently half of the world's population are in a small part of Asia -

How would massive world wide population reduction be achieved anyway ?

And without destabilizing pretty much ever country in the world -so that the environment stops being a major concern for countries / and regions - and just survival takes over ..

08-01-2022 11:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441223#Comment_118441223

You forgot rising living costs including the costs associated with having more than a few children, which leads to families sticking to one or two children as opposed to larger families which are associated with agrarian societies. Development leads to higher standards of living, but also increased costs in terms of property, education, but also a host of costs associated with status (and so people go into debt to have better cars, and other signs of prosperity). All of which places greater demands on the economy to provide those benefits, and so, greater CO2 emissions. China is a perfect example of this, as even with their one child policy (which wasn't as strict as most people think), it was their shift into a developed nation and the move away from an agricultural society that pushed them into massive industrialisation, and the ever greater demands to provide for the population to keep them satisfied.

Honestly, I suspect the only way to achieve worldwide population reduction will be as a result of a world war... which we're kinda due to have soon anyway.

Glock17 · 09-01-2022 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118439177#Comment_118439177

Environmental problems arent just limited to greenhouse gases though. It's more than likely that wild elephants and rhinos will become extinct in africa within a few decades.

Africans breed so much they have to cut down forests for firewood and farmland etc....

You might not care about wildlife in africa, but I do.

joseywhales · 09-01-2022 12:23pm

"mixed breds"...."This is not a racist comment"

"Africans breed so much they have to cut down forests for firewood and farmland etc".... Yes that's why Ireland has the least forested acreage in Europe, it because the Africans breed so much.

There is nothing special about "Africans breeding", they are just doing what we did many years ago(anyone remember coffin ships?). We remember the famine as a desperate time in our history with great sorrow but we have no time for Mediterranean migrants drowning at sea apparently that is just a scam. And it is racist to talk about them like they are an animal species that breeds and has mixed breds etc. There is only one species of human.

Glock17 · 09-01-2022 12:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443168#Comment_118443168

Yeah, well said.

Who really cares about elephants going extinct when you can show everyone you're a white saviour?

joseywhales · 09-01-2022 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443234#Comment_118443234

You can save the elephants without being racist, they are mutually exclusive things.

Thelonious Monk · 09-01-2022 12:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443168#Comment_118443168

Yes it's hilarious, nothing resembling wilderness and no forests any more on the island of Ireland but Africans breeding is destroying the Earth. We made a total mess of our environment but others doing it is the real problem.

Glock17 · 09-01-2022 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443244#Comment_118443244

You're the guy bringing race into it...

Glock17 · 09-01-2022 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443293#Comment_118443293

What is done is done... no one can go back in time and save the Irish forests...

However forests in africa and south America are getting cut down now...

You might not care about that but other people do....

09-01-2022 1:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118409561#Comment_118409561

“The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them.”

― Vladimir Ilich Lenin

Not a fan of Lenin or communist ideologues, but no one is wrong 100% of the time and Lenin was right on that right one.

Galwayguy35 · 09-01-2022 1:56pm

In the past things like the Black Death, famine, high infant mortality and more recently the Spanish flu kept population numbers in check.

Add to this in Asia, Africa and South America most of them are riding bareback which is leading to a population explosion in those places but yeah the likes of little Gretta will never mention any of those things because its easy to blame the more developed countries which are actually making an effort to tackle climate change.

Thelonious Monk · 09-01-2022 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443477#Comment_118443477

or we could just leave some of the land in Ireland alone and forests would regenerate but no, all that matters is money money money

Danzy · 09-01-2022 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438215#Comment_118438215

This is worth noting, progressive left politics and green politics are now overwhelming young White, middle class and up.

The natural home for the Hispanic vote is more likely to be Republican than Democrat.

Danzy · 09-01-2022 2:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118441223#Comment_118441223

The greatest population growth is in areas with little good land

Danzy · 09-01-2022 2:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443293#Comment_118443293

Exactly it's like when hypocrites and racists complain about the destruction of the Amazon.

Thelonious Monk · 09-01-2022 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443644#Comment_118443644

Go to the farming forum here on boards and you'll see the good green god loving farmers talking about feeding soya to their grass fed cows, there's a thread on this now. Where do we think that soya comes from? South America.

Danzy · 09-01-2022 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443759#Comment_118443759

Are they being racist about it and wanting the Brazilian clearances to stop? That's hypocritical of them.

The poorest and most marginalized in Brazil are able to build good lives for themselves now in Amazonia. Land for the taking.

They can build a decent life for themselves Where the colour of their skin would always be a problem in Corporate near White Brazil.

They must have opportunities and hope as well.

09-01-2022 4:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443556#Comment_118443556

That makes little actual sense. The traditional livestock farming practices in Africa and other nations was a major driver towards environmental change in those regions. Poor people have little interest or awareness of modern scientific considerations towards soil erosion, or the killing off of local fauna/flora. Poor people are also, just as likely as those with average/wealthy means, to kill off local wildlife, and in many cases, are more likely to be involved in the poaching of protected animals.

Don't get me wrong. People in rich countries are definitely partially responsible for the state of the world.. but let's not be unreasonable here. Poor people are just as likely to be involved in practices which are highly destructive (regardless of whether they're aware or not).

This romantic notion that poor people are somehow innocent of this is utter nonsense.

joseywhales · 09-01-2022 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443465#Comment_118443465

Mate, just because I called out your racism, doesn't mean that I brought race into it. Saying that Africans breed too much is objectively racist. Similar things would have been said about the Irish in the past.

joseywhales · 09-01-2022 4:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444199#Comment_118444199

I depends what you means. If you are accounting for past damage and how we got here, then the developed world is much more responsible. Countries like India and previously China would make this argument when asked to improve their CO2 targets. The industrial revolution and the last century of industry have resulted in the environmental damage we see and what we will see for the next few hundred years, predominantly caused by the developed world.

So what's done is done but even going forward, we can see that the average carbon per person is still higher in the developed world.

09-01-2022 4:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444261#Comment_118444261

I depends what you means. If you are accounting for past damage and how we got here, then the developed world is much more responsible

I don't see there being a competition. You could lay the blame on foreign corporations strip mining, or national state owned corporations strip mining. It amounts to the same as the same practices were applied in destroying the environment. Just as you could blame corporations for burning large swaths of forested area, or the local farmers for doing exactly the same thing but over a longer period. It amounts to the same thing.

The argument by India and China means little because most countries that seek to modernise ultimately tend to turn to industrialization, and in the modern sense, more pollution is produced to achieve similar levels. Some countries manage to modernise by association with others who achieved it, skipping the different stages of industrialization, but they're kinda rare.

In any case, as I said, everyone is responsible. Poor people in Africa continue to pursue farming practices that encourage desertification, and the contamination of water sources, even when education against such practices is available. You can blame the developed nations or rich people, but it's a cop out, and ignores the effect of local groups and how they've interacted with their environment over decades or centuries. The simple fact about polluting or destroying the environment is that small actions can have major consequences, such as the destruction of a water source, or the stripping of soil foundations, causing a spread to other areas well beyond the initial area affected.

joseywhales · 09-01-2022 5:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444382#Comment_118444382

I guess I'll agree to disagree. To me any objective measurement will show that the developed world is more responsible for environmental degradation than the developing world. Metrics could include, mass of carbon emitted or economic benefit extracted from polluting activities(i.e. who funds industrial and mining activity). This is not to negate your point that farming semi arid soil in an ever heating climate will lead to desertification, I just feel like the effect of poor farmers in developing countries is negligible in contrast to the effect of massive industrial processes funded by and for the benefit of the developed world.

09-01-2022 5:45pm

Bulgaria's population has dropped by 844,000 between 2011 and the latest census just released in 2021. Population now standing at just 6.5 million.

Most of the decrease (53%) is due to negative demographic trends, increased mortality and negative natural decline.

Could currently be the world's most extreme example of population decline.

Strumms · 09-01-2022 6:16pm

But again the ESRI prediction for Ireland is rapid and massive population growth. Not decline. Because another country is predicting a fall in population we are to presume the same ? No, we are not.

in 2001 if I wanted to drive from where I live to say the Brown Thomas car park on Clarendon St ? About off peak 15-20 minutes… nowadays about 45 minutes.

its taking forever to navigate the city, public transport has reached capacity close to capacity even off peak at times.. hospital waiting lists are super long, funding and availability for certain treatments of a rehabilitative and non life threatening nature are being required but can’t be delivered…

The social welfare and assistance tab year on year is rising…

houses will just be everywhere the whole country will be like a super city in 50 years. Planning laws already out the window.. anybody in the councils will tell you that.

its going to get to the stage where there is not enough cash to invest in improving our roads, transport networks , hospitals etc….how to pay for extra Gardai to keep up with population growth, new stations, more cars ? More courts ? More prison places ? How ?

country is donald ducked….we’ll all end up paying more tax out of our hard end pay packets… but benefiting little ourselves from that.

too many people here and our quality of life, expectations and wellbeing are busted…. Completely.

09-01-2022 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444830#Comment_118444830

Agreed but the ESRI and all political parties will always push for continued growth, more immigration, more housing, more schools etc...

It's all they know and all they care about.

The paradigm needs to change at some stage, who knows when or how though.

09-01-2022 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444620#Comment_118444620

It depends what you care to look at. If you're looking at global CO emissions, then, yes, definitely the developed world is far more responsible. Although, China, Brazil and India, as developing nations have come along so quickly as to join that club.

If you're looking at the local environmental changes in Africa or S.America, then the "poor" (or local) people will be far more likely to be directly responsible for the state of things, either through farming, hunting, or their own forms of economic expansion. Consider the post I quoted when you, in turn, quoted me.

Strumms · 09-01-2022 6:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444860#Comment_118444860

Because the people making the decisions and their families will be the last of the people to be impacted….

the genuinely lower - middle class are getting totally screwed.

The ESRI back last May were advocating an increase in income tax, withdrawal of certain tax credits, raising VAT rates…

yet we are in this predicament yet some are advocating we spent more on helping people from differing origin countries ? Makes zero sense.

Overpopulation

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