Hate Speech Public Consultation

07-01-2022 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433036#Comment_118433036

Grand. I don't agree, but no value going around in circles on this.

07-01-2022 3:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433024#Comment_118433024

I know about the merged threads as I replied to that OP about democracy... which was an inaccurate concern, as democracy wouldn't be affected by such a proposal.

As for reading the legislation... I've seen the claims that posters haven't read it, just as I've seen the other posters remark that the entire bill isn't available to be read. Most posters are arguing over release statements about the legislation, or points of reference that were made in articles about the legislation. Personally, I suspect that many of the posters claiming that others haven't read it, haven't bothered reading it (what's available) themselves. Many of the concerns made were in relation to similar legislation implemented in other countries, which to be fair, would likely to have formed the basis in creating this legislation.

Bubbly, you've objected to others objections to the legislation even when they've shown that they're informed on the topic.

In any case, I'll leave it at that. I was responding to Chips remarks about the posters, and I have no interest in extending that discussion when it's been adequately covered already. Prefer to go back to observing the actual discussion over the legislation.

08-01-2022 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433024#Comment_118433024

most of the things quoted are crimes covered in existing legislation. The new proposals remove the objective test on a crime being committing, and replaces it with the subjective feeling of the percieved victims. I have had one colleague go off reservation with a massive rant and claim victim status and claim all sorts of crimes against him by his colleagues because he is a Muslim. The reality was the actions against him were nothing to do with prejudice(ant muslim bigotry or racism) but entirely due to his laziness, incompetence and general shafting of non muslim colleagues. SO i feel like we could be prosecuted based on his subjective feelings, rather than the objective truth of the matter

Tell me how · 08-01-2022 11:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437954#Comment_118437954

The new proposals remove the objective test on a crime being committing, and replaces it with the subjective feeling of the perceived victims.

Do you think the same argument could be used to argue against the need for spousal rape to be possible to prosecute as a crime? The same could be said about laws relating to discrimination or unfair treatment in the workplace, the subjective interpretation of the events are likely going to be very different. As is the case in the example you provided. Does that mean that we shouldn't have laws attempting to govern such activities?

Faugheen · 08-01-2022 1:47pm

It’s just dawned on me that a lot of the people who are so against this because of the false narrative of ‘restricting free speech’ are the same people who want to restrict people’s lives in other ways because of their ‘conservative values’.

Annasopra · 08-01-2022 1:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437954#Comment_118437954

How? I dont see anything that could potentially be hate speech or hate crime or why you would be prosecuted.

Annasopra · 08-01-2022 1:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438697#Comment_118438697

Yes. You will find some of the arguments about human rights and freedom of expression are quite hollow because they tend to come from people who want to restrict human rights and freedom of expression when they disagree with the expression. Theres also a refusal by a lot of people against this legislation to listen to alternative viewpoints or to acknowledge there are genuine issues with hate crime or hate speech. Its a very narrow view on the world.

08-01-2022 2:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438729#Comment_118438729

under the proposed new laws, it doesnt have to be objectively hate or prejudice, it just has to be percieved as such as by the alleged victim/complainant

Palmach · 08-01-2022 2:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438757#Comment_118438757

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/planned-hate-speech-laws-will-contain-higher-bar-for-prosecution-1.4438867

"he Government’s planned hate speech laws will contain a significantly higher bar for prosecution compared to similar laws that have led to controversial court cases in the UK.Minister for Justice Helen McEntee will on Thursday produce draft legislative proposals to greatly strengthen the State’s ability to tackle hate speech levelled against minorities.....................................................................................................Furthermore, unlike in the UK, the test for hate speech will be objective rather than subjective. There, speech can be treated as hateful if another member of the public believes it to be hateful. However under the Irish proposals, specific and pre-existing guidelines will be used to determine if speech is hateful, not just whether the alleged victim felt they were the victim of a hate attack.

08-01-2022 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438834#Comment_118438834

thanks for that. reassuring, but it is a just a politicians promise. What is concerning in the quote, is that she proposes strengthening hate speech laws targetted against minorities, which is laudable, but the laws should tackle it evenly, ie, if we are going to have hate speech laws it should apply to everybody equally, not just a stick for one group to be beaten with.. Love your username BTW, heroes of mine too

Tell me how · 08-01-2022 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438757#Comment_118438757

Why do you think this law is going to be applied any differently to other laws by the Gardai, DPP and courts system?

It's just scaremongering to suggest all it takes is one person to feel slighted and everything else will automatically happen.

As I pointed out earlier, several laws cover acts that are subjective either they are a problem or this one is unlikely to be.

Palmach · 08-01-2022 4:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118438906#Comment_118438906

A promise only that's true but the stridency with which she said it gives me the belief it will happen. Helen isn't exactly a stick your head above the parapet type and there's little doubt senior figures around her agree with her.

08-01-2022 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118439316#Comment_118439316

i hope you are right. She is a politician though

Quantum Erasure · 16-01-2022 4:48am

may be relevant

Justice Minister Helen McEntee has said a new national strategy to tackle domestic, sexual and gender-based violence in the wake of the murder of Ashling Murphy will be introduced in the coming weeks, with the intention of adopting a zero-tolerance policy for violence against women.

Writing in the Sunday Independent today, Ms McEntee tells of her own experiences and asks why violence against women has been tolerated for so long.

“I myself often accepted it as just the way it was; that I had to take extra precautions as I walked home after a night out or had to put up with some casual misogyny. This will not be tolerated any longer,” she says.

16-01-2022 10:14am

I really don't think making women into some sort of a weak minority is any kind of answer.

There should be zero tolerance for all violent incidents against all people.

eagle eye · 16-01-2022 10:46am

What has this to do with hate speech?

16-01-2022 10:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483055#Comment_118483055

plan to criminalize being a dickead, not criminal behaviour per se. It will not stop murderers or rapists

TomTomTim · 16-01-2022 1:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483055#Comment_118483055

What does tolerate even mean in this context?

The definition says: authorize, sanction, condone, indulge, agree to

According to the definition it's not tolerated. Something happening does not make it tolerated, so to me this is dangerous language from our MOJ.

16-01-2022 1:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118483356#Comment_118483356

Nothing. And it's nothing to do with the bill before the oireachtas at the moment.

Pussyhands · 17-01-2022 11:53am

These type of people don't realise all the ways anonymity saved many people, from organising protests in 3rd world countries, to whistleblowing in any country.

https://twitter.com/Twitspc/status/1482852319393992710

17-01-2022 11:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118488369#Comment_118488369

I think you don't realise the amount of porn and child abuse and other abuses that are online and the offender's will never be caught because of anonymous accounts.