Cities around the world that are reducing car access

Sam Russell · 06-01-2022 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429515#Comment_118429515

It requires some to forsake their car for other means of transport - not everyone, but many. Just as recycling your waste. If you do not do it, well so be it, but if enough do, then that change will matter.

Changing an ICE car for electric car will not be enough unless many others do give up the car, or at least make greater use of PT or cycling or walking. There are other solutions, like the Go Car that is short term rental, or greater available P&R facilities.

Just because it does not suit you does nor mean that others would be of the same position.

[Deleted User] · 06-01-2022 11:07pm

I didn't say it didn't suit me to use public transport. I have a better range of transport options available than most with e-scooters, public bikes, car share parked in car park nearby, multiple bus routes and local rail options very nearby but having my own private transport available to me is simply hands down more convenient all the time.

[Deleted User] · 06-01-2022 11:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430314#Comment_118430314

That's perfectly fine and more power to you.

However, therein lies the major problem.....its TOO convenient.

To be honest, the description you have given is of a car user primed for a move to a more sustainable mode of transport.

The objective for planners etc, is to shift that balance of convenience towards those alternate modes. This is done through any of the following

Carrot

Protected cycling infrastructure, expanded bike parking, bike share, sheltered bike parking
Increased permeability and accessibility, priority at crossings over motor traffic, longer crossing times, more crossing points with signals
Bus lanes, higher frequency, expansion of routes and priority at junctions
Park & Stride locations

Stick

Increased parking costs
Congestion charges
Limiting access
One-way systems
Various taxes and levies (workplace parking charges, fuel taxes, VRT etc)

So in the end, you will still have a multitude of options to chose from, as you listed out, however the balance of convenience will have shifted to encourage you to make a more sustainable choice, thereby freeing up capacity on the road network for those who have no other option, but to drive.

If you still choose to drive after that, you can, but it won't necessarily be the most convenient option

[Deleted User] · 06-01-2022 11:49pm

Why is it "too convenient" to have my own personal transport? Why do I want to make hardship for myself. There is no local congestion. There is no local pollution(and don't start quoting questionable reports about tyre debris and brake dust). There is no CO2 emission from renewable source.

All four of the carrots mentioned there are present in my city. Buses have priority basically everywhere in the locality.

The dogmatic eco-warrior autocrat will now move on to the Sticks even though they are not needed.

About the only further concession I'm willing to make is to a small footprint quadricyle powered by Electricity which maximises usage of roadspace while recognizing the independence and freedom of the Citizen. At the moment I could drive a Quadricycle with a Moped licence with no road tax or road worthiness check and insurance at maybe about 50 quid but the choice of electric quadricycles is severely limited at the moment and they are obscenely overpriced. I can live with a 45kmph top speed as higher speeds are not particularly necessary in this urban area.

That isn't in keeping with the Dogma round here so you'll brush over that and move on to the sticks with which to beat people's backs.

It appears to be their way or the highway...oh wait...roads are evil.

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 12:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430579#Comment_118430579

So dramatic lol.

Here, take a look at this. He explains it far better than I will at this late hour given your response to my last post. Suffice to say, its not about you, or me, its about giving viable alternatives and letting people choose the most convenient option for them for any given moment/situation/requirement.

https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k

Or review this, from Waze, showing the Nederland's was voted the best place to drive in the world, simply because a hell of a lot of people choose not to drive if they don't really need to

https://inbox-static.waze.com/driverindex.pdf

The critical thing to remember is this is about shifting the balance of convenience towards more sustainable modes, that is all. If some wish to keep driving everywhere all day, lash ahead, but it won't be as convenient.

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 1:27am

How about adding a few points to the Carrot list rather than adding to the Stick list in pursuit of your car-lite nirvana.

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 1:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431040#Comment_118431040

What do you suggest?

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 11:13am

removing VAT on purchase of personal mobility solutions including electric quadricycles.

If for example you want to get from Sandymount to Palmerstown or somewhere that isn't quiet Palmerstown then you either drive your car or use the magical mystery tour that is the No. 18. At 13km it is too far for most mortals to walk or cycle.

with an e-bike or quadricycle that is a very easy distance except you have to stump up for the e-bike or quadricycle. A €500 Fiido becomes just over €400.

A quadricycle loses 23% VAT.

When the personal mobility solution becomes more attainable then you can think whether you buy a monthly or annual commuter ticket or stick to the bike. 20 years ago I was using a pushbike in preference to public transport in the inner suburbs of Dublin. When the old first or second car in your family needs repair or scrapping you can think whether you really want the hassle of owning a second car with all the obligations and restrictions or if you can afford to migrate to a personal mobility solution. Within 5 to 10 years of incentivising personal mobility solutions there will be transformation.

Amsterdam, Holland is held up as an example of a city that has moved away from Cars. It is an example because the existing old-fashioned personal mobility solution of a bike doesn't push its limits in a small flat compact city like Amsterdam. The pushbike is doing ALL the heavy lifting in Amsterdam, not the prohibition of cars or the public transport system. The human powered pushbike is beyond its limits in Dublin due to sprawl, climate and geography.

Seth Brundle · 07-01-2022 12:00pm

The human powered pushbike is beyond its limits in Dublin due to sprawl, climate and geography.

That is utter nonsense. People did it for decades. Dublin is relatively flat compared to many other cities. The climate is actually quite mild here and is quite similar to Amsterdam (see here)

As for the sprawl, that is largely due to the car-based culture but the bike does have a role to play helping to overcome it.

I'm not trying to force anyone out of a car and onto a bike. However, at least when we're having this discussion, lets not make up stuff which is blatantly untrue.

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 12:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431857#Comment_118431857

Good idea regarding VAT

Removal of VAT has been agreed at the EU level recently, as a way to reduce costs for bikes, ebikes, etc. Now it's just a matter of waiting for the reduction to become a reality

https://cyclingindustry.news/eu-council-makes-vat-cut-on-bicycles-and-e-bikes/

As for the actual costs themselves, you seem to be baulking at this yet I wonder what the purchase price of your car was, plus the amount spent annually on fuel, service, tax, insurance etc for comparison.

Not looking for you to tell me, it just surprises me sometimes when this cost issue is brought up as a barrier but the same issue is not a barrier for their car despite the significantly higher costs, generally speaking. It's a a difficult one to understand

As an example, the Fiido price you quoted is around what you would spend for a new set of tyres and cheap ones at that.

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 1:18pm

you have no idea how little I'm actually paying all-in for my EV monthly due to subsidization/tax treatment by Government and Company. It is a no-brainer for me to run an EV car.

That proposed only gives Governments the right to remove VAT or reduce it below 15%. Convincing Government to do so is another matter.

As has been seen time and time again if a lobby group goes to government and gives them an excuse to introduce or increase a tax/levy they'll listen but lobby groups who propose removal of taxes are given the cold shoulder.

CatInABox · 07-01-2022 3:11pm

Leicester introducing a levy for employer provided parking spaces. Has the potential to be a game changer for cities.

https://twitter.com/sjeffrey01/status/1479445207955476484

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 3:22pm

And do you see that as a good thing while knowing nothing about the commuting needs of each and every one of those who work in Leicester?

But yeah...cars are always evil irrespective of usage pattern, footprint or method of propulsion.

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433442#Comment_118433442

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433533#Comment_118433533

This is an interesting one and one which is already proposed for Galway. Cork & Dublin are to get congestion charges. It should be noted that In Nottingham and what is proposed for Galway allow for exemptions for employers with less than X spaces so it wouldn't impact small businesses, only mid to large scale employers. I think its 20 spaces in Nottingham currently. Also in Nottingham, the employers have chosen to pass the cost on to employees.

Eventually the 4 main cities will all have both as well as exclusion zones. Well if the latest proposals are anything to go by, but who knows how long until they introduce these things. Hopefully not too long

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 3:49pm

so you put the potential employees of multi-nationals at a disadvantage of hundreds of euros to potential staff in other areas of the world.

Multi-nationals are only interested in the total net cost of putting staff behind a desk and working.

I suppose it is a way to resolve congestion but at the expense of turning a city in to an economic wasteland.

but, but, but WFH is a panacea for all the ills of the world.

Seth Brundle · 07-01-2022 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433798#Comment_118433798

Have you actually a shred of evidence that this approach would turn a city into an economic wasteland?

If you look at cities that encouraged the car based culture, the cities tend to be poorer for it. Many cities in the US become derelict at hignt because of this culture. There is no city centre. In terms of shopping, they all travel to malls rather than shop in city or town centres.

Cities that focus on people (rather than cars) become much more economically active.

So, would you like to rephrase what you were attempting to say or was it simply "wah wah its not fair that I might not be able to drive where and when I wish"

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 4:02pm

Apart from my Colleagues who I worked alongside in Ireland for years being made redundant because the costbase was too high...No proof whatsoever.

Seth Brundle · 07-01-2022 4:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433928#Comment_118433928

Were your colleagues made redundant because of costs attributed to their mode of travel or for other business reasons?

I'm assuming it is the latter so how exactly will someone's choice of travel threaten the future of a company? I have a choice as to drive, walk cycle or bus to my workplace. There are very few people who need to drive to work. Of all those who drive to and from work each day, the vast majority choose to drive simply because until now, it has been an easy choice. The ease at which this choice is made will now skew towards sustainable methods of travel. Any businesses that cannot adjust to cater for this and end up suffering are presumably near unviable anyhow irrespective of the costs per parking space

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 4:25pm

Do you not understand that it doesn't matter if it is a parking charge or higher healthcare costs or income tax costs or cost of office space, all that matters is the cost to get an employee of adequate quality at a desk working productively in Ireland as opposed to somewhere else in the world. Either the Multi-national or the employee eats the cost of getting to the office and the Multi-national has options available to them beyond the reach of a Councillor in an Urban District Council. If the Multi-national is factoring in 500 quid for a parking space then they need to be paying 500 quid less for the employee and the employee they find who is willing to work for 500 euro less is not necessarily of the same quality.

These are cold hard facts which my Irish Colleagues were faced with and left my Colleagues here in this Office shocked at how ruthless our Employer was when they needed to trim costs in the Department.

You're the one without a shred of evidence to prove that discouraging travel to work actually on balance improves quality of life. It's all very well until you need to eat or pay rent.

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434083#Comment_118434083

Your style of posting reminds me of conversations with the lads in the Occupy tents back when they were around. They really seemed to struggle to argue a single point and instead seemed intent on maintaining a stream of whataboutery as a strategy to win an argument but the fact that they never stuck to one single argument or point makes "winning" impossible.

Note, I have no problem engaging with you on any point, and already have done so, but you make it very difficult to even understand what you have issues with a lot of the time.

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 4:41pm

You are all playing your games of SIM City in an imperfectly modelled environment.

I'm not the one living in La-La land.

There is no whataboutery involved in pointing out that if you increase the cost of putting a worker at a desk then a highly mobile employer will employ staff elsewhere.

These are uncomfortable truths for many around here.

Ah but more buses...who pays for them and do they reach their target.

Ah but Amsterdam bikes...come back to me when the climate and geography of Ireland improves otherwise propose personal private transportation more compatible with Ireland's climate and environment.

Seth Brundle · 07-01-2022 4:43pm

You're the one without a shred of evidence to prove that discouraging travel to work actually on balance improves quality of life. It's all very well until you need to eat or pay rent.

There are plenty of reasearch that shows that commuting by car is not good for the health of the occupants of the car or for the wider population. As for discouraging travel to work is not something that is being proposed. What is being proposed is to discourage one method of travel in favour of more sustainable approaches. This will improve everyones quality of life.

As for the multi-national wanting to pass on the cost - as these cost choices will affect each employer in the city (or at least each large employer) it will affect the market altogether. Furthermore, I as an employee of a MNC will not be affected because I've alread made the choice not to drive. If the MNC decides to absorb the cost then I wonder if BIK will be applicable to the employee (in the same way that it would be if the company paid for the car). However, if the MNC decides to up sticks because of this new charge then anything could have made them make the decision to leave, not just a parking space charge. However, in time hopefully we see most large cities implement such a charge so that the MNC will see it as a standard cost regardless of location.

Either way, it still comes back to the point that people are largely choosing to drive most of their journeys. They don't need to drive them!

Seth Brundle · 07-01-2022 4:47pm

There is no whataboutery involved in pointing out that if you increase the cost of putting a worker at a desk then a highly mobile employer will employ staff elsewhere.

As I've mentioned, I will not be subject to a parking space charge because I have made the choice to change my means of transport. Everyone else has that choice. The employer also has the choice to close some or all parking spaces as they see fit.

Ah but more buses...who pays for them and do they reach their target.

The bus users and the taxpayer. Why?

Ah but Amsterdam bikes...come back to me when the climate and geography of Ireland improves otherwise propose personal private transportation more compatible with Ireland's climate and environment.

I've already addressed this bullshit argument today. Did you not read it or do you disagree with cold hard facts?

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 4:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434179#Comment_118434179

Ireland is a high cost economy, sure, no argument there, but then it has been that way for the last 15 years, which was only balanced by the 12.5% tax rate. It'll be interesting to see what happens once there is a min 15% rate agreed but it'll take 5-10 years post introduction before we'll have enough info to see the real impacts.

Not sure what any of that has to do with the thread topic though. Do you wish to start a thread on the Tax forum to discuss further, just drop me a link or do a @ mention if you do

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 4:57pm

I mention it in this thread because a poster was wetting themselves with glee over a proposed move to increase the cost of working in a regional UK city all to combat those evil cars.

Game Changer, yeah! Game Over for some, more like.

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434223#Comment_118434223

No you didn't address it. You provided a string of words and felt smug.

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434289#Comment_118434289

Nottingham seems to be doing fine, which is probably why other cities are looking to introduce similar measures

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 5:11pm

I'm withdrawing until something of substance is added.

Posters here have not modelled the environment faithfully yet from a subjective perspective based on bias propose alterations to the model which will magically make it "better".

McGrath5 · 07-01-2022 5:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434289#Comment_118434289

Its not about increasing costs of working, its getting motorists to pay their fair share towards the costs of building and maintaining car centric infrastructure that only the privileged few who can afford to drive get to avail of. Dont like it then don't drive to work, simple. Why are you so reluctant to pay your fair share?

[Deleted User] · 07-01-2022 5:48pm

who are these "privileged few". There are 2.2 million registered cars in Ireland.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/452305/ireland-number-of-registered-passenger-cars/#:~:text=In%202019%2C%20the%20number%20of,approximately%202.2%20million%20registered%20units.

remove those who aren't yet allowed drive under the age of 17, those who have retired from driving and those who are fortunate enough to not need a car and then tell me who are these "privileged few".

Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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