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Are we becoming worse as a Nanny State?

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin


    Nah you’re completely incorrect there, as per the article in the OP the costs to the healthcare system of smoking and second hand smoke related illnesses are 170 mil per annum vs 1.2 billion per annum in tobacco tax revenue. It’s a massive net contributor to state funding.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭growleaves


    This intolerance itself changes people's relationship to society.

    Every time some behaviour is deemed bad or costly, debate is replaced with open disrespect.

    In which case why would I trust you or anyone like you or want to engage with institutions except where it can't be avoided?

    You'll be held in contempt, secretly if not openly.

    Will tobacco smokers now be cast as villains? Recent history says they probably will be.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,036 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Is sulking over taxes the new national religion btw?

    Yet posters don't get worked up when FG siphon off billions in taxes to private interests...

    Post edited by growleaves on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    That is a pretty narrow way to look at it though.

    There was a UK study a few years ago which tried to determine whether smoking is a net contributor, and they struggled on what criteria to explore.

    One, for example, was the impact on state pensions - smokers who die younger cost less in pensions (and because they die younger they also cost less in terms of other age-related conditions). Another was the lost economic output caused by productive workers leaving jobs due to ill health. Yet another was the cost of responding to fires caused by smoking. A final one I remember was the employment created by tobacco companies and associated companies (shipping companies and so on).

    They had to go into guesswork for a lot of it, but they main point of it is that the real costs (for or against) go way beyond simply looking at tobacco tax versus hospital treatments for smoking-related illnesses.

    Post edited by osarusan on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭Stephen_Maturin


    Meh I see what you mean but if there’s literally a billion+ in the difference between the tax revenue and directly related medical costs I don’t think it’s difficult to see even accounting for the other factors you mentioned it’d still be a net contributor.

    Cigarettes don’t continue to burn by themselves anymore and thus are a factor in far far fewer fires nowadays. The point at which smoking related illness will preclude you from going into work is still rather old even for lifelong smokers - diseases like COPD etc are quite uncommon in ages below 55 and even then are more common in age brackets older than that.

    This is heavily counterbalanced by the other point you touched on - smokers tend to die younger and therefore cost far far less to the state in terms of pensions and old age care which is massively expensive.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,092 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    I couldn't care less as I don't smoke and you would want to be a nawful muppet to start these days. It's less attractive to do since pubs and socialising are curtailed. There aren't any role models that smoke now like celebs and movie stars of the '40s.

    Vaping is where it's at now, it doesnt stink whatever it does to your insides but again, not my problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,383 ✭✭✭Billy Mays




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,370 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Too strong for me, maybe if they go back to making strains that aren't 20%+ thc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Your taking the piss with that statement aren't ya.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,853 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Quite telling that no-one is attempting to argue that we are not.

    Instead, they're attempting to tell us that it's a good thing.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,462 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    Yeah I remember the novel 1984 the main issue was 'carbon taxes' and 'price of alcohol'

    F**k sake. This country where once contraception was illegal, where being homosexual would get you jailed, where mainstream movies and literature were banned, where children were taken from young mothers, where sexual abuse was ignored, where suicide victims weren't allowed be buried with family.

    Don't give me that crap. Ireland is million times more 'free' now than even 40-50 years ago never mind 100 years when we were living under the thumb of the British empire.

    Yes there are still issues in this country. A stupid war on drugs, a draconian prostitution law, direct provision (Ireland not following the international set rules for asylum seekers) among them but the price of booze or cigarettes are not an attack on your freedoms.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭John Doe1


    I think this trend may be related to the 30,000+ NGO's which exist in this in country pouring poison into politicians ears.



  • Posts: 714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ireland ranks 8th in this nanny state index. http://nannystateindex.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/NannyStateIndex-final.pdf

    Interestingly rank in this index does not correlate with life expectancy, the only thing that does is wealth and ‘sin taxes’ disproportionately make the poorest poorer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,853 ✭✭✭Nermal


    Within literally a single sentence you both decry the 'war on drugs' and support further restrictions on the two drugs that are most widely used.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,755 ✭✭✭KaneToad


    I value my freedom. Non regulation of those things you mentioned restricts my freedom.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,324 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    Maybe if you are a hermit who doesn't smoke you are blissfully unaffected but they do limit what you are able to do



  • Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That is a pretty narrow way to look at it though.

    It hardly matters though. It was decided that smokers would be further penalised for smoking, and that's pretty much it. Oh, I've heard all the reasons, but they tend to shrivel when examined closely.

    I've been smoking for roughly 20ish years, and I've always been on private health insurance (either mine or my parents), and during that whole period, I have not once needed medical care, in any way related to my smoking habit. That's over 20 years of insurance contributions (which were taxed), higher life insurance and life assurance rates because I was a smoker (which are also taxed), etc... in addition to the constant price hikes to the cost of tobacco in this country (even before 1998 prices were increasing) to the point where tobacco is roughly four times the cost in other European nations. I've spoken with a variety of friends (both working and middle class smokers) and they're all on private health insurance, and have got nothing from the State, with regards to any issues to do with smoking. Anything that's come up, has been paid out of their own pockets, because of the waiting lists, and poor service commitments of the public health service.

    So, TBH, I often wonder about these claims that smokers cost the State so much... but it doesn't actually matter because we do live in a nanny state, where the government can tax a segment of that society more than others, in addition to encouraging/allowing businesses to charge higher rates/prices to smokers, which further increase tax returns. There's little real desire to end the availability and use of tobacco in Ireland, because it's worth so much to the government, and they're not going to ban it outright... instead, they will continue to leech money from smokers as long as they can. The overall smoking prevalence declined from 25% in 2003 to 17% in 2019.. so... there's still a sizable number of people still smoking, and likely to continue smoking remaining to be taxed, and charged for something that remains legal.

    And no, I have no issue with the smoking ban, encouraging people to stop smoking, whatever... that's all good in my eyes. I've never been one to smoke around/near non-smokers, and understand their concerns.

    Each generation has a health concern. For my parents, it was heart disease. For mine, it was cancer. There's always something to fear when it comes to health... and the supposed costs to the State. Over the last two years, catching up with family members, and others, I've encountered so many people who have cancer, and most of them never smoked a day in their lives. We make such a big deal about the increased risks to smokers, but ignore that cancer is a risk to everyone, and appears to be manifesting more often regardless of whether you were a smoker or not.

    The issue returns to whether Ireland is a nanny state, and I would say that it is... It's just that Irish society is too fragmented to really concern themselves with how others are affected by the regulation of society. We're only really concerned with how we, ourselves, are controlled/restrained, rather than looking at the overall picture.



  • Posts: 4,546 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Iv had some close relations die from smoking related illness and one very sick at the minute from a cancer likely smoking related.


    I see people saying that smokers die younger and cost the health and pension system less. I be inclined to agree.


    However none of the illnesses were very quick ends, (without getting too into the personal details) there were long periods of illness before the final days. Serious debilitating side effects and long periods in hospital and some very heavy hard treatments. Believe me I would not wish it on my worst enemy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,324 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    Your chance of being one of those innocent parties is very small given the large population of Europe, as such I don't worry about it and I'd rather have full control over my own car. Covid certs are ineffective and should have been scrapped as soon as they realised vaccinated people could still easily spread the virus, but instead it was the first thing the government extended as soon as there was an uptick in the cases. Carbon taxes do feck all for us other than making the poor poorer and the emissions problem would be far from solved even if people stopped buying fuel altogether. The cashless society is being massively egged on my the government and payment processing companies and studies to say cash isn't spreading covid are being ignored, there is just too much money to be had from transaction fees and data about people's spending habits that they will keep relentlessly pushing for cashless society.

    I actually hope the fags ban will work as I hate fags with a passion but I doubt it given the already thriving black market. For some reason governments around the world are happy to land more rules and regulation on people but do little to solve the problem.



  • Posts: 6,559 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ah yes, a totally trustworthy index that is run by a think tank associated with the tobacco lobby.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 155 ✭✭I Blame Sheeple


    How many breadcrumbs make a loaf of bread? Everything starts off tiny and insignificant, even you and me.



  • Posts: 7,522 ✭✭✭ Ellie High Bicyclist


    You don’t make bread from breadcrumbs; it’s the other way around.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,893 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    I think it depends on what you consider to be a nanny state really.

    Take for instance I know people they want masks to be made mandatory for life because it makes us all safe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 155 ✭✭I Blame Sheeple


    The analogy still stands in that case, we're a loaf of bread being broken down into crumbs through little tiny things like this and bigger things like the pandemic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,620 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    Dont know about weakening your immune system by protecting yourself from every harmful germ.

    Ridicules requirement to instated permanently. We live in the real world not some lab.



  • Posts: 1,077 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In better news, just seen some stats on Twitter, there was 22 confirmed homicides in the Republic this year. The state is doing OK on plenty of fronts, that must be one of the lowest per capita murder rates in the world.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,734 ✭✭✭seenitall


    Wow, That’s a very interesting statistic and probably worthy of its own thread why Ireland fares so well in that aspect.

    Great stat, very nice and hopeful for the day That’s in it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Finty Lemon


    Irish people have never been as free, economically, or spiritually.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,221 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    what trend? i.e. what other freedoms have been curtailed that can be laid at the door of NGOs?

    the biggest beneficiary of MUP on alcohol will be the off-licences.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 664 ✭✭✭MakersMark


    Our cradle to grave, no questions asked unlimited welfare has made us a nanny state for a long, long time.



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