Are we becoming worse as a Nanny State?

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-considers-ban-on-sale-of-tobacco-in-state-1.4765676

Considering an outright ban on tobacco (as if all smokers wouldn’t just empty duty frees, depriving the state of ~1 billion in tax revenue).

Minimum alcohol pricing coming in.

Why is the government’s answer to every issue just to ban things? What has happened to the concept of personal responsibility?

I find it unpalatable in the extreme. That smug, condescending muinteoir “we know what’s best for you” air about them. And what frustrates me most is the vocal swathes of Helen Lovejoys who actually welcome the government further restricting their lives and their freedoms.

We are not becoming more liberal with time, we are becoming more Puritan. Are we on a slippery slope?

New Zealand are going down the route of banning tobacco. Pretty good idea I think. It’s a worthless habit that has a bad effect on health.

It will probably go black market for those who are already addicted but long term I can’t see the appeal as nobody gets high off cigarettes in the same way they do with alcohol or drugs.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392054#Comment_118392054

and their ban is going to fail because all prohibition does.

it implements a mystical nature in relation to any sort of drug and tobacco won't be any different even though as you rightly point out it does not get one high.

Ubbquittious

There has been a real move towards Orwellianism in the past few years

Mandatory speed limiters for cars

Covid certs

Cashless society

Carbon taxes

Impending fags ban?

I wonder does anyone still value their freedom? Anyone who is against any of these things is automatically branded as a conspiracy theorist or Trump supporter

thefallingman

We've been a nanny state for a long time, but there is serious benefits to not having tobacco in our country for the good of our health, and that of our children, but like many are pointing out, how do you police it.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225018/are-we-becoming-worse-as-a-nanny-state

Why is the government’s answer to every issue just to ban things?

You say this like both the tobacco and alcohol industries have continued for decades after the evidence of their destructive impact became evidence.

I'm not in favour of outright bans, off the cuff, but that hasn't come close to happening in either of these cases. I am a former smoker who really enjoyed the act of smoking a cigarette and luckily I was never a heavy smoker but I have no problem with the scaled manner in which it has been targeted for reducing the number of people doing it because it was accompanied by massively overwhelming evidence as to its harm.

Why shouldn't a government look at the potential risks to the health of a society and look to mitigate against them? Why should we have an expectation to be able to do whatever we want, whenever we want, when we rely on cohabiting and engaging with everyone else in society as part of our existence.

TheRepentent

Pointless banning it completely...we'd just end up giving criminal gangs more money. Look at prohibition in the states and the war on drugs.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392209#Comment_118392209

covid certs only exist because of those who won't get vaccinated because doctor youtube, and because those of us who are vaccinated have a right to go about our business seeing as we are responsible adults who took personal responsibility.

carbon taxes are necessary so as to make things more efficient and hugely cut ridiculous pollution levels.

speed limiters have been fitted to trucks and buses for as long as i can remember, so it actually makes sense to fit them to cars as well given people do break the speed limit and cars can cause damage in an accident situation.

i will give you cashless society, i wish to be able to use cash as it's convenient for me but i don't think that it's removal is about nanny statism but about cost cutting by the banks.

i obviously don't support fag bans or nonsense like MUP and believe all restrictions in relation to alcohol bar the age limit should be removed.

HalfAndHalf

Posted the same link earlier today with the premise of 100 deaths and 1000 admissions to hospital every single day attributed to smoking. Surprised we haven’t needed national lockdowns to protect the health system with those figures 🤦‍♂️

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392209#Comment_118392209

What do you mean by freedom? Do you exist in a society where you don't rely on the presence and contribution of others in order to live your life as it is currently? Should you be automatically entitled to put their safety at risk just so as to not impede on your freedom?

In relation to 'those who value their freedom', I've noticed more and more over the last months that most of those who are adamant that there shouldn't be any form of restrictions are also adamant that immigration should be controlled and cry in equal measure about the introduction of covid certs while demanding that people should have papers to show that they are entitled to be in a country.

It seems to me these people aren't against government control, they just them to enforce the type of control that they are comfortable with. I'm not saying all of them are Trump supporters, I will say that a lot of Trump supporters fall in to this category. (and I'm only mentioning that as you introduced the topic, others will be along shortly to decry any mention of him on an Irish website.)

thebaz

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225018/are-we-becoming-worse-as-a-nanny-state

I don't smoke or drink anymore. driving has become unenjoyable , but I'm a free Spirit at heart, glad I grew up in the 70's when life was for living - Today the nanny state or HSE tell us how to live, we are told we are a more compassionate liberal society, but in truth we are becoming medicated robots to the system, but glad I quit smoking.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392334#Comment_118392334

It is just that the amount of freedom you are expected to give up for the common good is continuously increasing. It has been increasing as long as I'm alive but the last couple of years of it are really taking the biscuit.

BluePlanet

Pretty sure this is just kite flying.

magicbastarder

the notion of speed limiters in cars being a sign of nanny statism is strange; complaining about being prevented from doing something which is already illegal is a sign that you resent it being illegal, not that you resent the new measure. i.e. people who complain about speed limiters should simply just clarify that they object to speed limits, not speed limiters.

re smoking, i'd be content if the price of cigarettes was simply set to accrue for the state what the cost of dealing with smoking related illnesses cost. so if you want to smoke, you fund your own healthcare and don't depend on the public purse for your hobby. thankfully smoking has declined to a point where the rest of us are much more rarely subjected to the stink of someone else's smoke.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392359#Comment_118392359

These are the points you referred to in your earlier post.

• Mandatory speed limiters for cars
• Covid certs
• Cashless society
• Carbon taxes
• Impending fags ban?

First one, a direct effort to deal with 25K people dying on the roads in Europe every year. Many of these who do die, are innocent parties. Covid certs, a direct response to the most impactful global medical event of any of our lifetimes. Cashless soceity, driven by consumer use it seems to me. Carbon taxes, the climate issue is a massive chronic problem with likely catastrophic implications for the human race, action is needed. Impending fags ban, not yet a law, has come after decades of efforts to reduce their use as a consequence of the evidence of their impact.

Covid aside, we enjoy more freedom today than the vast majority of people throughout history, the controlling of some of our behaviours so as to ensure our freedom does not impact negatively on others is completely understandable in most cases, and necessary in many.

corks finest

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225018/are-we-becoming-worse-as-a-nanny-state

Yes

Brucie Bonus

Smoking does nothing but addict you and slowly kill you. I'm cool with it being banned outright.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392395#Comment_118392395

According to the above article smoking and second hand smoke related illnesses cost the state €172 million in 2016

Annual tax revenues in Ireland for tobacco are in the region of €1.2 billion.

So would you be in favour of tax rebates for smokers or?

It's an inconvenient truth but they’re a huge net contributor to the state finances. The cost argument doesn’t hold water at all.

nj27

Carbon taxes will certainly save the world as China adds 43 new coal fired power plants and 18 blast furnaces to their already substantial emissions, so our barely detectable levels should be an immediate priority of course. I do tend to speed a lot, but you don't have to use all of the power all the time. I'd remove any speed restrictor from my car and decide when I want to speed myself without input from anyone else. I hate alcohol and tobacco but it's up to you if you want to indulge in that and be an unhealthy pig! I'd love to ban porno tho.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392431#Comment_118392431

assuming those figures are correct, i'd say it's nearly job done on tobacco so; it's dying anyway because of vaping and other factors, little need to waste money on further schemes to drive it down more.

NSAman

While they are at it, why don’t they ban alcohol….?

that worked under prohibition …😀

growleaves

'Covid aside, we enjoy more freedom today than the vast majority of people throughout history'

There is no Covid aside, since it isn't clear when if ever the restrictions and the siege against the unvaccinated will be lifted.

Many Europeans of the last thousand years lived much freer lives than people do now.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392462#Comment_118392462

Yeah exactly, I just don’t see the need for further restrictive measures

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392191#Comment_118392191

It will be interesting to see how it works out. My feeling is that as there is no great buzz with smoking then the black market would likely be small. A lot of people will just quit or not start in the first place.

For those that still want to smoke it will push it into organised crime which will not be good.

it takes 2 2 tango

There’s a thread in AH started by yours truly 😆

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392503#Comment_118392503

get the vaccine and there won't be any extra restrictions on you.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392829#Comment_118392829

We're debating how free Ireland is as a country.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392847#Comment_118392847

Unvaccinated people pose a risk to the health service and public health. We're in a global health crisis so it's pretty logical that different rules apply. Same would have applied during world wars etc.

joseywhales

What will we mix into our spliffs?

JizzBeans

Can posters stop using terms like "Nanny State" & "Orwellian" please. Its so cringe and embarrassing. Alcohol & Fags are a blithe on the health system and the cost of treating related illness dwarf any potential revenue loss.

If you really are that concerned about the future of the state, then why don't YOU get elected and run things as YOU see fit.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058225018/are-we-becoming-worse-as-a-nanny-state

But the problem is people don’t want to take personal responsibility, what they want is freedom without responsibility. And society is getting less and less tolerant of such behavior. When your lifestyle choices impacts the rest of society you can expect that your choices will be restricted.

It is not a case of a nanny state, but more a case of people saying we are not willing to put up with your bad behavior when it impacts our health, our healthcare services and our tax bills. It’s not just Ireland, discussions are going on across the world on just how much society should have to put up with one person’s lifestyle choices impacts those around them.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118393552#Comment_118393552

Nah you’re completely incorrect there, as per the article in the OP the costs to the healthcare system of smoking and second hand smoke related illnesses are 170 mil per annum vs 1.2 billion per annum in tobacco tax revenue. It’s a massive net contributor to state funding.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118393678#Comment_118393678

This intolerance itself changes people's relationship to society.

Every time some behaviour is deemed bad or costly, debate is replaced with open disrespect.

In which case why would I trust you or anyone like you or want to engage with institutions except where it can't be avoided?

You'll be held in contempt, secretly if not openly.

Will tobacco smokers now be cast as villains? Recent history says they probably will be.

growleaves

Is sulking over taxes the new national religion btw?

Yet posters don't get worked up when FG siphon off billions in taxes to private interests...

osarusan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118393923#Comment_118393923

That is a pretty narrow way to look at it though.

There was a UK study a few years ago which tried to determine whether smoking is a net contributor, and they struggled on what criteria to explore.

One, for example, was the impact on state pensions - smokers who die younger cost less in pensions (and because they die younger they also cost less in terms of other age-related conditions). Another was the lost economic output caused by productive workers leaving jobs due to ill health. Yet another was the cost of responding to fires caused by smoking. A final one I remember was the employment created by tobacco companies and associated companies (shipping companies and so on).

They had to go into guesswork for a lot of it, but they main point of it is that the real costs (for or against) go way beyond simply looking at tobacco tax versus hospital treatments for smoking-related illnesses.

Stephen_Maturin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394330#Comment_118394330

Meh I see what you mean but if there’s literally a billion+ in the difference between the tax revenue and directly related medical costs I don’t think it’s difficult to see even accounting for the other factors you mentioned it’d still be a net contributor.

Cigarettes don’t continue to burn by themselves anymore and thus are a factor in far far fewer fires nowadays. The point at which smoking related illness will preclude you from going into work is still rather old even for lifelong smokers - diseases like COPD etc are quite uncommon in ages below 55 and even then are more common in age brackets older than that.

This is heavily counterbalanced by the other point you touched on - smokers tend to die younger and therefore cost far far less to the state in terms of pensions and old age care which is massively expensive.

whisky_galore

I couldn't care less as I don't smoke and you would want to be a nawful muppet to start these days. It's less attractive to do since pubs and socialising are curtailed. There aren't any role models that smoke now like celebs and movie stars of the '40s.

Vaping is where it's at now, it doesnt stink whatever it does to your insides but again, not my problem.

Billy Mays

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118393494#Comment_118393494

Go pure

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394818#Comment_118394818

Too strong for me, maybe if they go back to making strains that aren't 20%+ thc

Mr. teddywinkles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392829#Comment_118392829

Your taking the piss with that statement aren't ya.

Nermal

Quite telling that no-one is attempting to argue that we are not.

Instead, they're attempting to tell us that it's a good thing.

rossie1977

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394857#Comment_118394857

Yeah I remember the novel 1984 the main issue was 'carbon taxes' and 'price of alcohol'

F**k sake. This country where once contraception was illegal, where being homosexual would get you jailed, where mainstream movies and literature were banned, where children were taken from young mothers, where sexual abuse was ignored, where suicide victims weren't allowed be buried with family.

Don't give me that crap. Ireland is million times more 'free' now than even 40-50 years ago never mind 100 years when we were living under the thumb of the British empire.

Yes there are still issues in this country. A stupid war on drugs, a draconian prostitution law, direct provision (Ireland not following the international set rules for asylum seekers) among them but the price of booze or cigarettes are not an attack on your freedoms.

John Doe1

I think this trend may be related to the 30,000+ NGO's which exist in this in country pouring poison into politicians ears.

Ireland ranks 8th in this nanny state index. http://nannystateindex.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/NannyStateIndex-final.pdf

Interestingly rank in this index does not correlate with life expectancy, the only thing that does is wealth and ‘sin taxes’ disproportionately make the poorest poorer.

Nermal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394980#Comment_118394980

Within literally a single sentence you both decry the 'war on drugs' and support further restrictions on the two drugs that are most widely used.

KaneToad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392209#Comment_118392209

I value my freedom. Non regulation of those things you mentioned restricts my freedom.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118395134#Comment_118395134

Maybe if you are a hermit who doesn't smoke you are blissfully unaffected but they do limit what you are able to do

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118394330#Comment_118394330

That is a pretty narrow way to look at it though.

It hardly matters though. It was decided that smokers would be further penalised for smoking, and that's pretty much it. Oh, I've heard all the reasons, but they tend to shrivel when examined closely.

I've been smoking for roughly 20ish years, and I've always been on private health insurance (either mine or my parents), and during that whole period, I have not once needed medical care, in any way related to my smoking habit. That's over 20 years of insurance contributions (which were taxed), higher life insurance and life assurance rates because I was a smoker (which are also taxed), etc... in addition to the constant price hikes to the cost of tobacco in this country (even before 1998 prices were increasing) to the point where tobacco is roughly four times the cost in other European nations. I've spoken with a variety of friends (both working and middle class smokers) and they're all on private health insurance, and have got nothing from the State, with regards to any issues to do with smoking. Anything that's come up, has been paid out of their own pockets, because of the waiting lists, and poor service commitments of the public health service.

So, TBH, I often wonder about these claims that smokers cost the State so much... but it doesn't actually matter because we do live in a nanny state, where the government can tax a segment of that society more than others, in addition to encouraging/allowing businesses to charge higher rates/prices to smokers, which further increase tax returns. There's little real desire to end the availability and use of tobacco in Ireland, because it's worth so much to the government, and they're not going to ban it outright... instead, they will continue to leech money from smokers as long as they can. The overall smoking prevalence declined from 25% in 2003 to 17% in 2019.. so... there's still a sizable number of people still smoking, and likely to continue smoking remaining to be taxed, and charged for something that remains legal.

And no, I have no issue with the smoking ban, encouraging people to stop smoking, whatever... that's all good in my eyes. I've never been one to smoke around/near non-smokers, and understand their concerns.

Each generation has a health concern. For my parents, it was heart disease. For mine, it was cancer. There's always something to fear when it comes to health... and the supposed costs to the State. Over the last two years, catching up with family members, and others, I've encountered so many people who have cancer, and most of them never smoked a day in their lives. We make such a big deal about the increased risks to smokers, but ignore that cancer is a risk to everyone, and appears to be manifesting more often regardless of whether you were a smoker or not.

The issue returns to whether Ireland is a nanny state, and I would say that it is... It's just that Irish society is too fragmented to really concern themselves with how others are affected by the regulation of society. We're only really concerned with how we, ourselves, are controlled/restrained, rather than looking at the overall picture.

Iv had some close relations die from smoking related illness and one very sick at the minute from a cancer likely smoking related.

I see people saying that smokers die younger and cost the health and pension system less. I be inclined to agree.

However none of the illnesses were very quick ends, (without getting too into the personal details) there were long periods of illness before the final days. Serious debilitating side effects and long periods in hospital and some very heavy hard treatments. Believe me I would not wish it on my worst enemy.

Ubbquittious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118392396#Comment_118392396

Your chance of being one of those innocent parties is very small given the large population of Europe, as such I don't worry about it and I'd rather have full control over my own car. Covid certs are ineffective and should have been scrapped as soon as they realised vaccinated people could still easily spread the virus, but instead it was the first thing the government extended as soon as there was an uptick in the cases. Carbon taxes do feck all for us other than making the poor poorer and the emissions problem would be far from solved even if people stopped buying fuel altogether. The cashless society is being massively egged on my the government and payment processing companies and studies to say cash isn't spreading covid are being ignored, there is just too much money to be had from transaction fees and data about people's spending habits that they will keep relentlessly pushing for cashless society.

I actually hope the fags ban will work as I hate fags with a passion but I doubt it given the already thriving black market. For some reason governments around the world are happy to land more rules and regulation on people but do little to solve the problem.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118395119#Comment_118395119

Ah yes, a totally trustworthy index that is run by a think tank associated with the tobacco lobby.

https://tobaccotactics.org/wiki/institute-of-economic-affairs/