BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Busman Paddy Lasty · 03-12-2021 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261939#Comment_118261939

"The Continent" if I had to guess.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Europe

Citrus_8 · 03-12-2021 6:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261939#Comment_118261939

Yeah, sorry, the continent. Thanks for the correction.

.G. · 03-12-2021 8:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118260755#Comment_118260755

Why bother, they're all going to end up on a spine at some stage regardless of garage, doubt route familarisation will be any less daunting for any of them if you've to know them all. Back when I drove for DB we got very limited route training, taken out maybe once or twice on each route and then left to it! as the saying went "you'll know the route when your shift finishes"😂

TranslatorPS · 04-12-2021 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118258599#Comment_118258599

Dublin Bus (and Go-Ahead Ireland on the city routes) have a rather archaic-looking AVL unit installed in their buses that only shows the current stop name and the schedule deviation against the current location. Short of actually printing proper duty cards (like Go-Ahead have out of OmniTimes), DB don't have a quick look-up of intermediate times available.

Bus Eireann and commuter Go-Ahead use Trapeze's AVL units, which show the scheduled times for the current, next, and final stop for that trip. Far better visually and functionally. If not for the cost of reequipping about 1200-1250 buses, I'd strongly recommend switching out the equipment, or otherwise DB should start rolling out proper paper schedules for drivers.

Peregrine · 04-12-2021 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118267856#Comment_118267856

They're tendering for a replacement AVL system. It'll be 2023 by the time we see anything though.

TranslatorPS · 04-12-2021 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118267935#Comment_118267935

This is still brilliant news, as frankly DB's current system is useless for planning the road by the driver.

The NTA should consider an integrated TVM/AVL unit solution: I know there's Trapeze-based units available, Leipzig's LVB buses are equipped with such. I'd solve a whole lot of data interfacing problems, but I guess it's too late to have thought of that now.

p_haugh · 04-12-2021 3:30pm

Just to note, when they updated the stops being served by the new C-Spine expressos going out to UCD, surprisingly they updated every stop along that corridor, not just the ones served by express services. Was very much expecting to see a mix and match of the old style and new style stops.

dublinman1990 · 09-12-2021 8:10pm

For those of you using the H Spine between All Saints Road & Abbey St. There will be one departure in place for the H9 from Monday the 13th of December as per the timetable changes. The single departure from All Saints Road is at 07:14.

jams100 · 11-12-2021 4:43pm

Two weeks on and Merrion Square stop (7391) still displaying the old timetable..and the bus that was supposed to start here passed by the stop displaying the wrong number 😕

bk · 13-12-2021 1:31pm

According to the October NTA Meeting minutes, they are proceeding with negotiations to sign a contract with NXP Semiconductor Inc for their Mifare2Go cloud system for a Virtual Leap Card.

So this is a bit different from just being able to use your contactless debit/credit card or Apple Pay. Instead you put your virutal Leap Card on your phone and can use the virtual leap card on your phone/smartwatch to pay for the fare, rather then having to carry your real Leap Card.

I think you would still need to topup your leap card wallet or buy tickets to be stored on your virtual leap card. But it can all be done on your phone without a physical leap card or needing to go to a shop, etc.

I suspect it will be quicker to roll this out then the contactless credit/debit cards. I think this will work with the existing card readers, while contactless EMV will require new card reading machines. Hopefully we will still also eventually get contactless EMV, both options are needed IMO. EMV in particular is helpful to completely get rid of cash.

This will be another step in the right direction.

AngryLips · 13-12-2021 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314273#Comment_118314273

That's too bad because the card readers are the main problem - they're just wayyy too slow. This is fixing everything except the problem.

In other news, I see they've moved some stops on Bachelor's Walk after the C route launch. The 151 now stops at a place on the quays that appears to be a location for the 39 busses to sit idle, preventing the 151 I was trying to catch from pulling in ...not sure how that's going to work over time.

thomasj · 13-12-2021 2:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314273#Comment_118314273

I'm sure I read something recently that contactless debit card etc payments would be years away still but that they were looking at a virtual leap card Style thing for the short term future .

dublinman1990 · 13-12-2021 4:07pm

This sounds like a good solution in the interim. Although I have a few thoughts about this is meant to work behind the scenes.

If the NTA were serious about setting this up in future. They have to plan very carefully how the system will be maintained to reduce risk of internet outages or scheduled maintenance or by hacking from criminals and outside actors from occurring if they have this new system up & running.

I'd imagine that the NTA would need to have plenty of I.T. experts on hand to make sure that these new cloud systems are constantly up to date with strict protections from hacking.

A lot of this information stored in the cloud does have a lot of high risks attached to having people's financial records being stolen being put up on the dark web if any part of the security aspect of this plan is not up to scratch.

The NTA would not want to tolerate a system wide hacking situation that occurred with the HSE earlier this year with some of their records being sold on the dark web.

Would the NTA need to have a data center provided for this new leap card cloud system to be up & running?

bk · 13-12-2021 10:10pm

I could be wrong, but I get the impression that NXP would operate the cloud system, though of course it would need to integrate in with the existing Leap back end systems maintained by the NTA.

Not that NXP are likely operating their own data center, most likely behind the scenes they are probably using one of the major cloud providers like AWS, Google, Azure, etc.

BTW The existing Leap system has backend servers in a data center somewhere, with all that financial data, ticketing information, etc. already on them and accessible, for instance, if you log into you account online, you can view your journeys after 24 hours. I'd assume these are run, maintained and secured by a technology contractor and have the various staff in place.

Maybe it is even NXP already doing it, or if not, it wouldn't be wildly different to have NXP do it, rather then the existing contractors. Though I assume the existing backend systems will be kept and probably talk to one another.

This is why I often say Leap is much more then just the card and ticket machines. There is a whole infrastrucutre and processes behind it that most don't see.

"That's too bad because the card readers are the main problem - they're just wayyy too slow. This is fixing everything except the problem."

I find the right hand validator relatively ok. Sure it could be faster, but isn't terrible either. It is interacting with the driver ticket machine that really slows everything down IME. If we could get everyone use the right hand validator it would be a big improvement.

Not that this will particularly change any of that. This will really just replace the existing leap cards, it maybe more convenient for existing leap card users and might even attract a few new users. But it won't fix the fundamental issues of having two different fares, people needing to go to the driver for the short fare, trying to get people to use the right hand validator for the 90 minute fare, people still paying by cash, etc.

I think it is a nice to have and I'll definitely use it. But still not a fix for the core problems.

Citrus_8 · 24-12-2021 12:10am

Does anybody know why a bus stop 2199 (Glenaulin, Chapelizod) looks different (green, white, black) comparing to the other new stops (green, yellow)? I actually prefer this, without a yellow. It can be seen on the Google maps street view.

dublinman1990 · 24-12-2021 1:06am

It could be a separate stop used for set down only. They have a bus stop coloured in those same colours for the H Spine routes in Lower Abbey St.

p_haugh · 24-12-2021 1:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118368290#Comment_118368290

The black section is used to designate that it's a layover/terminus stop, and the 76 terminates at that stop (like with the stop on Abbey Street for the H-spine terminus/layover stop)

dfx- · 25-12-2021 3:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118315555#Comment_118315555

With the botched information roll out to the CSpine and vague text description of the hexagons new ticketing, is it safe to think that they don't have really any staff or plenty of experts on hand?

Citrus_8 · 25-12-2021 9:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118368512#Comment_118368512

.

monument · 28-12-2021 2:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118314273#Comment_118314273

It's looking more and more like cash will be (almost) redundant off buses before buses go cashless. That's quite a different situation compared to years ago when cashless on buses was talked about as something that was going to happen before cashless in society generally.

Thinking about it another way -- the regular users who are most likely slow to switch to Leap or Leap on your phone etc, most likely have an older age profile and it's more likely that they will die out before real moves to cashless happens.

There's rarely any sense of urgency on sustainable transport. That needs to be tackled.

Charles Babbage · 28-12-2021 3:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118380610#Comment_118380610

On buses the oldest part of the population has free transport, unless they are foreign tourists, so it should be easier than in shops.

bk · 28-12-2021 12:07pm

I was going to say, OAP’s are ahead of the curve and are all already cashless on busses and using Leap card for their free travel passes.

At this stage I think there are few people who truly want to use cash. They got rid of cash a few years ago in London and I can’t think of any reason why here would be different.

I do think we need to introduce contactless debit/credit/smartphones first and have it in place for about a year before withdrawal of cash. I think the main reason some people still use cash, is because they rarely use public transport transport and can’t be bothered to go to the effort of getting a Leap card and remembering to bring it, etc.

Conactless would solve this as it eliminates then need to setup something different and no one forgets their phone these days.

Also it would work for most tourists straight of the plane. It is a low friction default option that can replace cash.

Note for the tin foil hat brigade, you can still go into a shop or use a TVM to buy an anonymous Leap card and pay by cash. Really this way is no different then what has been available in mainland Europe for more then 60 years where you bought books f tickets in a shop and then validate them on the bus.

the boss of me · 29-12-2021 4:59pm

Loads of people still use cash. I'd say 25 per cent of pax on my bus used cash today. Personally I use phone for tap, cards and cash and I can't understand some people's irrational hatred of cash. It's usually just as convenient as cashless and when you tip a server at least you know that they've actually received the tip.

the boss of me · 29-12-2021 4:59pm

Charles Babbage · 29-12-2021 5:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118386663#Comment_118386663

Generally, I use cash and card as convenient. However, the absence of change on Dublin buses makes cash a bit inconvenient and tips the balance.

loyatemu · 30-12-2021 4:54pm

I don't have an irrational hatred of cash, I just never have any unless I've taken some out for a specific purpose, or I raid the kids piggy banks (but even they're mainly using Revolut these days). The number of businesses that don't take cards has shrunk down to almost nothing, even long time holdouts like tradesmen and market stalls nearly all take card or online payment now. So why would I take out cash?

bk · 30-12-2021 5:46pm

This, if you are paid electronically like most people are these days, why would you even go and bother to withdraw cash from an ATM?!

Getting cash out involves, heading out and finding an ATM, maybe queueing, paying 12cent government tax each time and paying bank fee for the withdrawal (e.g. 35cent AIB).

That is way more effort and cost then just paying contactless. And of course, you only get cash, you need coins for the bus, so you have the extra step of heading to a shop to break the notes to get coins!

This topic keeps coming up on r/Ireland (about once a week), no one can understand why they can’t pay contactless on busses. It feels like the last two years has really killed off cash and almost everyone has gone contactless.

The NTA and the busses feel really out of step and old fashioned now compared to what almost everyone is using in shops etc.

I think he NTA seriously need to pull the finger out and get this sorted much faster then originally planned, 3 years from now is far too slow. As others have pointed even the smallest business people have responded quickly over the last year and now support contactless, pretty embarrassing for an organisation with a billion euro budget to take years to do the same!

dfx- · 30-12-2021 10:04pm

Cash as payment has survived for thousands of years. The Black Death, disintegration of empires, Spanish Flu and World Wars did not succeed. Cash is never being killed off.

Adding contactless i.e. app payment as another option is the way to go.