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Turning Left in a left turn lane

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,745 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    in the second screenshot though, you'd indicate to enter the left turning lane (assuming it spurs off the lane in the middle of the screenshot)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,019 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    A lot of drivers just don't indicate full stop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,184 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    I think you're making that classic confusion between what you think "should" happen as opposed to how it is defined. I agree of course that the driver should be indicating left, as I would be doing myself to avoid such issues. However.

    There is no mention of "use your indicator" or signal etc in the law. It specifies only a general indication, and being in a lane where the indicated direction of travel is only in one way, that is in and of itself an indication of travel.

    Insurance companies are not the law. Gardai are not the law either. If this was in a court of law, in accordance with the statute posted earlier, I would contend that the presence in a designated left turn only lane is a sufficient indication of my intent to follow the only legal direction of travel in that lane.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    yep, check behind, signal, approach turn, check nearside mirror, proceed if clear - all muscle memory/natural to do.

    No surprise left hooks happen like this when the first step or two aren't done. Its very telling what kind of self centred mindset some have when they can't even imagine why they might want to signal. Makes you wonder what else is missing from their skill set.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,745 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    There is no mention of "use your indicator" or signal etc in the law. It specifies only a general indication, and being in a lane where the indicated direction of travel is only in one way, that is in and of itself an indication of travel.

    yes there is. the law explicitly states indication must be performed with hand signals or lights.

    (1) Whenever a driver intends to slow down, stop or alter course, he shall either give a hand signal in accordance with the following Table or give a signal by using a direction indicator or stop lamp :

    also:

    (3) A driver shall give a signal in sufficient time before altering course and in such a manner as to be clearly visible and clearly understood by those for whom it is intended.

    and what if your car is sitting on top the arrow in the road so it's not visible to other road users? you would be obscuring the means by which you claim you are indicating.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,919 ✭✭✭GM228


    "There is no mention of "use your indicator" or signal etc in the law. It specifies only a general indication"

    Incorrect, the law specifically says you must use "a direction indicator........or give the appropriate hand signal".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    Ignorance of the law is no excuse

    That's a terrible road lay out. I would indicate there as it confusing

    But this is a general question. I a lot of cases there is no need.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭UID0


    Those wands have made that junction more dangerous. Any time I drove that road before they put in the wands, I would indicate that I was turning left, and I would move as far left as possible so that bikes couldn't come up my inside. You can't do that anymore. If I'm on the bike, when I approach a junction with stopped traffic, I prepare to stop or take avoiding action. I just don't trust other road users to do what they're supposed to do, and on a bike you come off second best.

    I don't know if it's a legal requirement to indicate when in a left turn lane or if by following the only legally allowed path (turning left) means that you aren't altering course (this is something that a court would have to decide), but indicating wouldn't have prevented the collision. What would have prevented this collision was either the driver checking his mirrors before pulling off or the cyclist noticing that the car was moving in the left turn lane and slowing/stopping even if not legally required to(on the basis that it's better to be alive than right). When I was learning to drive, my instructor stressed that all an indicator definitely means is that the bulb isn't blown. You can't rely on them being used correctly.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,745 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I don't know if it's a legal requirement to indicate when in a left turn lane

    again, if you're in a left turn lane and intend to turn left, you are by definition *intending to change direction* and this is clearly indicated in law as requiring you to indicate.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,745 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Any time I drove that road before they put in the wands, I would indicate that I was turning left, and I would move as far left as possible so that bikes couldn't come up my inside.

    just to tease this out - do you mean you did this when stopped, or moving while approaching the junction?

    because depending on how far you are from the junction and how fast you're moving (or not moving), this could be interpreted as hostile to cyclists.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,184 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left 


    Where is there a reference to using an indicator? How does one indicate straight on?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,553 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    You signal your intentions by using your indicator (or a hand signal, but that's a bit archaic and not very visible, though legal).

    In an ideal world, you would indicate your intention to go straight on by not indicating that you're going to turn right or left.....

    But this thread has amply demonstrated that it doesn't always work like that! 🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭UID0


    You are intending to change direction, but are you intending to alter course? It's the latter that requires indication. As I said, a court would have to decide if turning left while in a left turn only lane is altering course.

    In the junction in question, there is an arrow about 25-30m before the junction which says the left lane is left turn only, but the road layout does not suggest that it is a left turn only lane and, afaik this arrow is the only signage indicating that it is a left turn only lane. There has been no point up to this where the motorist was required to indicate in order to enter that lane as the lane split from one lane into two. This creates an ambiguity in the intended course of travel, meaning that a motorist should (although I don't know if they must) indicate that they are turning. Looking at a different junction layout, if you take someone going from Ellis Quay to Blackhall Place, a person has already indicated to move into the left turn lane, and in that instance there isn't any ambiguity in their intended direction of travel. They are not, in my opinion, altering course and an indicator should not be required (although I personally would use one as I feel it makes my intentions clearer). A court would have to decide if my interpretation is correct.

    The junction has been recently changed to this traffic flow, and, in my opinion, they have done an awful job. Where there is a cycle lane that goes straight, it should not go to the left of a left turn only lane, and whatever about a shared lane which allows cyclists to take command position and control the lane, putting a segregated cycle lane down the left forces a conflict situation which the cyclist cannot easily mitigate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Devils Advocate time and actual interpretation of the wording of SI 332/2012

    (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle, 

    Question:- The word HAS doesn't have the same meaning as IS, Does this mean you need not actually be signalling at the time, only that at some stage you have signalled, perhaps before someone arrives on the scene and overtakes on the left, while you are in a left/right turn lane?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 196 ✭✭UID0


    The last time I went through that junction it was still a left/straight lane. If I was approaching that junction and the light was red/going red and I was going to be in the first 1/2 cars at the light, I would indicate and pull right over to the left. If there were cyclists coming up that I could see, then I would hang back a little to let them go past me before pulling in behind them.

    If traffic was moving, and there were cyclists there, I would assume they were going straight, and depending on exact position and relative speeds, I would either go in front of them if I was well clear, or let them go first if I wasn't going to be well clear. And by well clear, I don't mean barely missing hitting them, I mean plenty of space so that they were not in any danger of being hit by me (or hitting me as I slowed).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    But all of this is written from the perspective of the person who has driven into (or remained before the split) in the left turn lane.

    The road still turns into a different road (a new perpendicular road) and therefore you are turning. There are also many other peopl earound that didnt come up the road travelled by the car.


    I know this is the legal forum and the question round the legality of the indicator was asked, but it misses the point entirely. All of this should be focused on the safest thing. To me as a driver in this situation would be to signal and check all around before moving (And I think clearly the checking has been missing) and as a cyclist would be to read the road as far ahead as possible, adjust speed to not be near a blind spot (and yes at times I would signal straight on - with a weird Hitler type hand signal). Leaving everyone around me who can see me in no doubt as to what I am going to do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭XVII


    so a left turn lane with a bike lane which goes straight? As in right across it?

    jesus christ, well done to whoever designed that.

    what's next, how about putting straight bike lane here for instance?

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.4049389,-6.2653751,3a,75y,348.78h,62.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGtTI4gT-zJoWmxuQZkGCGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

    Or do people here expect drivers to signal left on the above as well?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,553 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    That's one where I wouldn't necessarily keep signalling, once I'm gone past the point of physically being able to go straight on. But I'd have signalled up to that point.

    Where there is any ambiguity at all, indicators should be used. But you'd swear it costs money, or wastes the battery, or something!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭km991148


    Correct on the design - this is something a lot of Drivers will not be aware of (and usually results in "use the bike lane our road tax paid for" or other such nonsense - where a lot of the time the design is so poor its safer to not use them... but thats a digression!)


    That junction - why wouldn't you be signalling left? On approach I'd signal left to enter the lane and would keep the indicator on - that way any pedestrians waiting to cross and everyone else knows - BUT even if you argue that the junction shows more clearly to peds what is going on - it is more hassle to cancel the signal that do nothing and cancel after you turn.


    Unless there is some new tax on using indicators, I don't see what the arguments against are?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭the_pen_turner


    What's the diference between rolling the road straight or following it around to the left or right



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,553 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    I don't even understand that question tbh.

    The difference arises when there's a risk of taking out a cyclist (or pedestrian) when you turn to the left.

    Using your indicator means they get some advance warning of your intentions.

    Honestly, what's so difficult to understand about that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,553 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi





  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,745 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,745 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    if i knew i was at a junction like that and i was stopped, i would deliberately place my car where practical to allow cyclists past so they can get up to the top of the junction; for the same reason advance stop boxes have been placed in many junctions, so hopefully they can clear the junction ahead of the flow of motorised traffic, rather than inside the flow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,322 ✭✭✭Allinall


    That junction has two traffic light signals for cars. One for left turn, and one for straight on.

    They need to add a third for cyclists, which can be green for straight on when the car light is red for turn left, and Green for turn left in sync with the car light.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,745 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i wouldn't like to stand in front of a judge and argue 'well, yes, i was northbound on the R123 and intending to turn westbound onto the R321 but that doesn't mean i was altering course because an arrow was painted on the road'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Actually, that's only if you are indicating to a pointsman that you wish to proceed straight on.

    2) Whenever a driver wishes to indicate to a pointsman the direction he wishes to take, he shall give either a hand signal in accordance with the following Table or a signal by using a direction indicator :

    SIGNALS TO POINTSMEN.

    Intended course of action

    Signal to be given

    I want to go straight ahead.

    Extend the forearm and hand upwards with the palm to the front.

    I want to turn to the left.

    In the case of a vehicle other than a cycle, point the right forearm and hand (with the fingers extended) to the left.

    In the case of a cycle or an animal-drawn vehicle, extend the left arm and hand fully to the left with the palm to the front, and hold them rigid in a horizontal position straight out from the left side.

    I want to turn to the right.

    Extend the right arm and hand fully to the right with the palm to the front, and hold them rigid in a horizontal position straight out from the right side.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 43,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Whilst I agree, the design is such that any cyclist approaching the junction with the intention of travelling straight ahead will be placed in direct conflict with left-turning traffic. It is simply a bad design and there is no way around that other than a physical change.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,322 ✭✭✭Allinall


    They won't be in conflict with left turning traffic if they obey the traffic lights.

    That's akin to saying cyclists going straight through a set of lights are in direct conflict with crossing traffic.



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