Turning Left in a left turn lane

Spook_ie

Do people need to indicate turning left when in a left turning lane?

Was browsing the cycling forum ( as a person non grata on there I can't ask them ) when this subject popped up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312167#Comment_118312167

Some of the comments relate to if the car was indicating or not, so in a left turn lane is this indication that a vehicle is turning left under SI332 of 2012?

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/pdf

My opinion is that they need not as it would seem pretty obvious that they are going to go left but differing opinions on the legality of this thinking are welcome

whomitconcerns

Of course you have to indicate left to turn left. I don't understand how this isn't an automatic reflex for people...

There aren't exceptions to this rule.

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323078#Comment_118323078

I disagree there, if you are in a left turn lane then unless you are in the wrong lane you shouldn't need to indicate at all, I assume that if required you might have indicated earlier to enter the lane but at the turn itself?

TheChizler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058222894/turning-left-in-a-left-turn-lane

I didn't even realise the lane to the right was left only, god that junction is a mess

whomitconcerns

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323094#Comment_118323094

In the video the car crossed over the bike lane without indicating, the bike lane wasn't left turn only. The car driver is guilty of driving without due care and attention.

But generally speaking, any change of direction needs to be indicated. What about cyclists (as in this case) and pedestrians? You always need to. It should be a reflex action anyway.

blindsider

So, at a 'right filter', or 'right turning lane', you wouldn't indicate turning right? Hmm...not sure that seems right.

Also ROTR p. 106:

....note the MUST, and ALWAYS....

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323078#Comment_118323078

And the legality of this is coming from where? If you didn't turn left at such a junction surely you would be exposing yourself to driving without due care if you DIDN'T turn left or at the very least points for "Failure to obey requirements at junctions, e.g. not being in the correct lane when turning onto another road" or "Failure to comply with traffic markings"

standardg60

If i'm in a left or right turn for that matter only lane i don't see the need to indicate either as you're already displaying what your intention is, which is all an indicator is anyway.

There is still no right of way across the cycle lane (and agree it is a mess), so the driver should have checked their mirror and yielded to the cyclist going straight.

Stark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323155#Comment_118323155

Being pedantic here, the RotR isn't a legal document so doesn't fully answer the OP's question.

Probably no. 18 here (signals by drivers) covers it. https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

CrookedJack

Of course you're supposed to indicate before the turn - Your indicators are to tell others what you intend to do before you do it. Road markings and signs are to tell you what to do.

You can't have a system that only works if everyone is making the same assumptions - i.e. that everyone in that lane is turning left regards of indicating that they're going straight on. A system where everywhere else on the road not indicating means you're going straight on apart from these spots where it may mean you're turning left is not a safe system.

And regardless, why would you not indicate anyway even if you didn't have to. Indicating means everyone who sees you is taking into account what you plan to do so they're helping you avoid an accident. It costs you absolutely nothing and increase everyone's safety.

the_pen_turner

this isnt why the colision happened.

if your in a lane that only goes left then your not changing anything , your following the road. i wouldnt indicate in that situation . why would you.

highdef

Whilst the car should maybe have been indicating to turn left, is an indicator not just a signal to notify others of your intent of a maneuver you intend to carry out in the future ? A flashing indicator is purely to let others know that you do intend to change lane, turn a corner, etc.

It could be argued that the driver decided to make the left turn at the last moment, thereby making any advance indication to be useless.

Just playing Devils Advocate here. The long and short of it is that the car driver should have been paying attention to their surroundings (mirrors, etc) and was driving without due care and attention.

blindsider

I understand the arguemtn re the ROTR not being a legal document - BUT, it's what the Gardai use in Court, as will any prosecution in a case. Or to put it another way, are you suggesting that the ROTR is, in some way, incorrect or wrong.......

I wonder how a judge would react if you turned up in Court and tried to rely on that argument.....

I think it does answer the OP's question as fully as is required. If you're turning, indicate.

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323155#Comment_118323155

If it was a clearly signed right or left turn lane then I wouldn't see the legal need to.

So surely you have already indicated that you are intending to turn based on lane signage, and would only need to indicate if ( for some reason ) you needed to get out of that lane, again it is the legality of needing to indicate once in a left or right turning lane that I'm seeking clarification on

CrookedJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323220#Comment_118323220

From the amendment you provide this paragraph would certainly imply that cars turning left would need to indicate in all situations as there is not caveat for them being in a left turn lane.

(b) A pedal cyclist may overtake on the left where vehicles to the pedal cyclist’s right are stationary or [332] 9 are moving more slowly than the overtaking pedal cycle, except where the vehicle to be overtaken— (i) has signalled an intention to turn to the left and there is a reasonable expectation that the vehicle in which the driver has signalled an intention to turn to the left will execute a movement to the left before the cycle overtakes the vehicle, (ii) is stationary for the purposes of permitting a passenger or passengers to alight or board the vehicle, or (iii) is stationary for the purposes of loading or unloading.”,

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323256#Comment_118323256

Which brings the obvious question of if it would be a penalty point offence NOT to follow the lane indications, then is being in a left turning turn the indication required that you are turning left and NOT going straight on

Caranica

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323321#Comment_118323321

What of a lane like the left lane on Bride Street? The left lane has a left turn arrow only, yet 90% of the traffic using it (including Gardai on occasion) turn right from it. Most people don't indicate either so cyclists have no chance.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323321#Comment_118323321

I had a look at Google Streetview and it looks like the signage was changed on the road in or before November of this year so the left lane is most certainly a left turn only lane so a vehicle in the left turn lane is already indicating to turn left by virtue of being in the lane, in my opinion. If a vehicle went straight on and did not turn left, then there's a problem.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323373#Comment_118323373

Good point! So yeah, should the cyclist in the OP have been in the right (straight ahead) lane in advance of the junction?

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323078#Comment_118323078

Driving a 'MO' reg in Galway city centre is one exception I can think of...

I started a thread a few years back on who has the right of way if a driver is turning left and a cyclist is going straight ahead. Much to my surprise, you don't have to yield to the cyclist if he is behind you (this seemed counterintuitive to me as I tend to let the cyclist pass ahead first before I turn left. But I have been in situations where the cyclist stopped and waved for me to turn left in front of him). The key thing here is to ALWAYs have your bloody indicator on no matter what so people know what you are doing.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323385#Comment_118323385

The cycle lane in question is part of the left turn lane (dashed line) so yes, I would agree that cyclists should assume that vehicles in that lane will most likely be turning left, regardless as to whether or not they have a flashing amber bulb illuminated on their car.

However, the driver in question should have checked their mirrors before taking the left turn......pure and simple driver error

Cookie_Monster

What has indicating or not got to do with the incident?

The motorist crossed a lane without yielding to the cyclist already in the lane and is 100% at fault for this reckless manoeuvre.

Spook_ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323402#Comment_118323402

But is there an actual lane? The road markings for a cycle track do not conform to the recognised format for lane markings, and indeed the broken line markings denote a shared road rather than a lane.

If it were a mandatory cycle lane marking ( unbroken white line ) then i would agree with you that the motorist would indeed be crossing a lane, however, as the line marking is broken then I don't believe they are crossing a lane.

fritzelly

Find it incredulous that anyone would argue that you don't need to indicate when going left or right

Regardless road markings how is anyone else supposed to know your intentions when they cannot see the road markings - surely the road markings are only a sign that this lane is only for this direction

Would love to see someone use that argument in court where an accident happened and they weren't indicating

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323333#Comment_118323333

Then the cyclist passing on the left would be fine.

When I'm on my bike or motorbike I always assume the other road users are going to do something stupid to try and kill me so I try not to put myself in situations where they can. So if I'm coming up to a left junction I won't go up their inside and if I see a right junction ahead I won't go up their outside. No matter what mode of transport I'm using , walking/ cycling/ riding /driving, I won't pull out of a junction( or cross the road when walking) just because a vehicle has got it's indicator on I wait for them to turn into the junction before I move.

What's legal or illegal doesn't matter a feck if you are Dead right, I'd rather be Alive wrong.

Thor

Regardless of legality here, video is really interesting as cyclist only posted rear video and not the front video. Their other videos show they have camera's on the he front as well. It's rare to see someone with rear camera and not front camera, so would like to see the video from the front to see if the driver did signal at all.

Drive should have seen cyclist in the mirror before turning, regardless if your indicating or not, you always check mirrors before making a turn for safety. For those arguing its following the road and not a turn. Any maneuverer governed by traffic lights is concerned a turn.

At the same time Cyclist should not be going straight along left hand turn only lane - again, regardless of legality, it just doesn't make sense, as every single car is going to be turning left. Myself and other cyclists i know pay attention to road markings - as their just as important for cyclist as drivers, so can't be sure why this cyclist didn't.

Victor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058222894/turning-left-in-a-left-turn-lane/p1 "Some of the comments relate to if the car was indicating or not, so in a left turn lane is this indication that a vehicle is turning left under SI332 of 2012?"

Indicating means using an indicator lamp, not some random other factor that may suggest you will turn.

Scag Mattress

Car should of checked his mirrors and cyclist had poor road position & not being aware of other traffic.

both dickheads

Seth Brundle

Regardless of legality here, video is really interesting as cyclist only posted rear video and not the front video. Their other videos show they have camera's on the he front as well. It's rare to see someone with rear camera and not front camera, so would like to see the video from the front to see if the driver did signal at all.

The original post involving the left turn incident mentioned this regarding their Fly12 front facing camera...

As an aside has anyone ever got a Cyclic Fly12CE repaired? Mine is acting up. Would have been a much better video from the front!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323564#Comment_118323564

Because of the wands and cycle lane.

I used to cycle that route and I would always move onto center of lane so no one would left hook me.

101 of cycling in traffic. But the wands prevent it. That someone would design a junction like that screams they don't know what they are doing.

The legality of signalling is moot. Since the higher obligation is not to drive into people.

Captain_Crash

Playing devils advocate here, the statute book states a vehicle shall indicate its intention to “alter course”.

One could argue that the course of a left turn only lane is to turn left, meaning if a car is in that lane turning left it is not altering course and thus not required to indicate???

Disclaimer, I always do anyway, I’d say most people do.