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UK Supreme Court: No to gender-neutral passports

  • 15-12-2021 3:43pm
    #1
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭


    Unanimous decision handed down today: You’re not an X. You’re either male or female.

    Reasoning was “There is no legislation in the United Kingdom which recognises a non-gendered category of individuals. On the contrary, legislation across the statute book assumes that all individuals can be categorised as belonging to one of two sexes or genders, terms which have been used interchangeably.”

    It remains to be seen if other countries will agree that you’re either male or female.


    Tagged:


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    'the statute book assumes that all individuals can be categorised as belonging to one of two sexes or genders'


    And that's because all individuals do.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Good.

    People are well within their rights to believe whatever they want, but when they start trying to force their version of reality onto everyone else and science and law itself, then we have a very big problem.

    Hopefully more of this kind of news follows suit.

    I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing about the other side winning small battles here and there.

    A concerted pushback is needed against this abject nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,724 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    There are moves in Ireland to legally recognise the gender identity of non binary people.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,351 ✭✭✭✭MEGA BRO WOLF 5000


    Just shows how much we've regressed... entertaining make believe now to appease like 5 people.


    Nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    Unfortunately this will, once again, be an opportunity for the eternally outraged to catapult themselves into the limelight.

    Hopefully other countries will follow suit, which is not something I often say about the UK.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,638 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It remains to be seen if other countries will agree that you’re either male or female.


    It doesn’t? Many countries already do recognise in law the existence of X gender or sex designation, India being one of the largest countries which does so -





  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    I just don't understand the people who take glee in this.

    It has absolutely zero impact on your life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    Are you saying people posting here have taken glee?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Perhaps because science, objectivity, and law is not something we should consider lightly.



  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    People genuinely struggle over this every single day of their lives. We might not have the science behind it yet, but we will.

    As I've said many times, homosexuality was nothing to do with science, objectivity and law once upon a time. It was a 'lifestyle', a 'choice' which went against science.

    That was all proven to be a load of absolute shite, once appropriate studies were done.

    A bit of compassion wouldn't go amiss, but for you I know that doesn't exist.

    Like I said, what someone else is has nothing to do with you, but yet you're sticking your middle finger up at them anyway.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Like I said, what someone else is has nothing to do with you, but yet you're sticking your middle finger up at them anyway.

    But it does.

    As I said, what people believe in their personal life - whether it's social or religious - has nothing to do with me. I wish them well.

    But why should, say, a person identifying as astralgender, impact my life?

    Astralgender: a xenogender that feels connected to space, stars and the universe. 

    I've nothing against anyone who decides that this label is what's for them. But it shouldn't impact my life, and I shouldn't be forced to accept it.

    Furthermore, there is agender - which is an identification that one is neither male or female.

    Do we now have passports with no reference to XX and XY anymore?

    Does subjective opinion now matter more than objective biological reality?

    This stuff does matter. It does impact people's life. And more so by the day.

    If it didn't, this thread wouldn't even exist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,034 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    Maybe calm down a bit?

    The ruling is on sex, not gender or sexuality. How many options do you think should be available for passports and other official documents?

    Where do you draw the line?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    What does you being forced to accept it look like? How does it impact you exactly?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,182 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you know if this *had* been allowed, you literally would have 0% chance of ever actually clapping eyes on the section of one of these passports which would offend you so much. you have a weirdly fevered notion of things that 'force' themselves on you.

    there's a hell of a difference between 'i disagree with this idea, in fact i think it's silly' and 'this is being forced on me'. nothing is being forced on you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,389 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    "But it shouldn't impact my life"


    How exactly would it impact your life?



  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    The UK supreme court has not said no to gender neutral passports. They just said there is no legislative backing to them. THis means that the politicians that promote it so much never bothered to legislate for gender neutral passports



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Once the state starts to "identify" with subjective opinion over objective reality, then it begins to impact me because it impacts society at large.

    It's also a slippery slope.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah, it's kinda like the gay marriage thing. Or the abortion thing. Lots of them happen in the background without anyone knowing about it. But yeah, let's be against it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    False.

    I'm a homosexual and in favour of gay marriage and abortion and all the rest.

    That's got nothing to do with the subjective interpretation of gender. This idea that anyone LGBT supports this stuff is nonsense. I know many, many, many people from the community who agree with me (when they know they can safely express the view), but - in public and at large - proclaim to support this kind of anti-scientific, subjective nonsense. They're afraid to speak the truth because they know what the reaction is like (and trust me, it's often very severe).

    It's absolutely and totally right that gender neutral passports have been rejected because subjectivity doesn't come into it. You're either XX or XY, and that objectivity is what matters - because objectivity removes opinion. We're just left with the facts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 80,988 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    It will though, it will gradually lead to unisex toilets so I will be waiting all day to go for a slash at the local boozer. Clothing stores will be banned from having male and female sections and everything will be fecked in to one location with zero ability to tell what would be for a man or woman.



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  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    So you're against this because you might (with zero factual basis) have to wait a couple of minutes longer to go for a piss in the pub?

    Also, the 'no mens and womens sections in shops' is scaremongering bollocks as well.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You really have to stop trying to reinforce everyone of your arguments about anything lgbt related with 'as a homosexual'. You do so as some sort of idiotic argument from authority and your anecdotal claims about the LGBT community being in agreement with you, there's nothing to say that you aren't inventing claims. Firstly, it's not a new phenomena for gender to be less clear than simply male and female. The concept of a third gender etc has been recognised across the globe at various points in history including in the present day. Gender is very much so a social construct so it's logical that the definition can be less than rigid.

    And honestly, I love it that there are people such as yourself that likely hate that transgender rights and such are very much so viewed in a far more positive fashion light here than the UK.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,147 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


     You're either XX or XY, and that objectivity is what matters 

    you can legally change gender on your passport though, so its not about biological sex any more



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Again, false.

    I completely support transgender rights, and think that any person who feels they were born into the wrong physical body, should transition and live as the person they wish to be. Only a complete idiot would be against that.

    But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about non-binary people (i.e. people who say they're neither male nor female).

    That is not a biological reality. You are either XX or XY. Even the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of trans / non-binary are either XX or XY. True, a ridiculously tiny number of people have chromosomal disorders, but even most of them align without the non-binary reference.

    In fact, many gender critical transgender women - such as Rose of Dawn and Blaire White - could not support trans- rights enough (and more power to them for that), but who are openly critical of gender self-identification, as happens with this passport issue.

    So, this idea that it's trans- versus everyone else is wrong.

    Many leading trans- voices are against gender self-identification / non-binary passports, too.

    You could say, it's a binary issue. Both sides are critical.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It'll eventually be subsumed into normality. Might take a decade. Who knows.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,006 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Actually, just to be pedantic, there are hermaphrodites! Or something akin to it at least.


    There are also people like that SA runner Caster Semayna (may be spelled incorrectly). She was accused, or at least suspected, of being "intersex" but I think she was later passed as eligible to compete so she didn't meet whatever necessary criteria there was


    I'm talking about physical manifestations here btw. Not anything else



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Intersex etc. and other real biological realities has nothing to do with the modern phenomenon of subjective gender self-identification.

    To conflate the two is to not understand the two.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,006 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Who is conflating the two? If you read the last line my post you will see that it stated

    I'm talking about physical manifestations here btw. Not anything else

    Be careful jumping up on your high horse too quickly in case you fall off it!


    I was merely responding to the absolute statements that:

    'the statute book assumes that all individuals can be categorised as belonging to one of two sexes or genders'

    And that's because all individuals do.

    So you cannot use the word "all" without adding a caveat



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What happens when most people who identify as non-binary are tested, and found to be either XX or XY?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,006 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    That has zero to do with my post. It is yourself who is apparently trying to conflate the two!!



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