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OpenStreetMap Unnecessary Public Listing of our Farm Buildings / Features

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  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Luttrell1975


    I'm not against farmers. Much as you would like me to say it I doubt the open mappers are either.

    I'm against fake privacy arguments, and moral arguments that have no evidence.

    In my spare time I take on creationists, who tell you the world is 4 thousand years old, and took 7 days to throw together.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,984 ✭✭✭Kevhog1988




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,516 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    That doesn’t answer why you wouldn’t compromise as suggested.

    your response is more “I’m doing this because I can”



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭emaherx


    That is exactly it, voicing our concern does not need to have any legal argument for it to still be a legitimate concern. And to be fair to OSM their responses were far from "We are doing this because I can" it was a bit more "we haven't put much thought into it, but may do if were perceived to be of legitimate concern".



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,516 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    It’s indicative of an ongoing loss in society. Individuals not thinking about others as humans but as adversaries to be gotten the better of.

    Possibly people whos in person life is lacking or out of control so they go online and prove to themselves they can beat others at some nonsense thing or other.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Luttrell1975


    Say more to me and explain "legitimate concern".

    Do you mean you have a real and widely held experience that marking the map with Barns and Cowsheds leads to a higher theft rate on farms? There isn't a single case I can read about in this country (or anywhere) where online maps formed part of the investigation, evidence or confession. Around 16000 burglary crimes are reported each year and about 25% end up in court. Not one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Luttrell1975


    Someone is arguing on a message board. What will they think of next? Smash the internet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,147 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Why is it a fake privacy argument?

    It very much is a real privacy argument.

    It is none of your business or anyone elses (not including legitimate authorities) what a farmer uses their sheds for no more than it is anyone's business what you use your garden shed for.

    And I don't see how a legitimate privacy argument is anyway comparable to debating a religious idea of creation.


    This whole thing is very much along the lines of the modern thought process of "I have a right to do what I want and screw the rest of ye".

    The modern societal idea with a lot of people is rights with no responsibilities.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Well at least that is certainly the conversation we are having rather than trying to trip any one up for misquoting the law.

    No, how could I, is there such an accessible and detailed map of all the functions of our agricultural buildings in existence yet? even OSM only has a few hundred agricultural buildings listed so far, so in essence is far from complete, but will grow in time. We have encountered at least one mapper who is very enthusiastic to map every detail that they can including horse walkers and ESB poles and basically any identifiable features because they are there. I've no particular issue with the ESB poles as they are part of public infrastructure, but that is the minute level of detail some mappers would like.

    Are you suggesting criminals are too dumb to read map especially one with a list of farm assets searchable by keyword? It would be fairly naïve to believe such tools couldn't be used in planning a crime. I have my doubts that a burglar after being caught gives a detailed account of how they had planned their crimes.





  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Luttrell1975



    I see what you did there. You re-framed me responding to people claiming they have "privacy rights" or a "right to privacy" (what is a right? Something you can vindicate in law.) as if it was about misquoting laws. I must be living in your head rent-free if that's the case. Go on, start the thread you were asked to start. Reframe it as laws... I dare you.

    Both of these articles are a joke. "Can"..................... think about that...... "can". Where is the proof that they did? Its not about being dumb, its about the fact that maps can be wrong, out of date and they use real world factors not seen on maps like CCTV, gate defences, alarms, lights, dogs, humans as their considerations. How do we know this? Go to the crime prevention seminars where the Gardai go through actual confessions where they require people to give full details about how they planned their crime. I have no fears for the intelligence of criminals. I do have fears for the intelligence of some people posting here though. The two publications have no reality filter in their journalism, just drivel that they know their readers will want to hear. You have got to be kidding.

    You keep on saying that there are searchable features with tool shed being the worst. The mappers told you on the other thread (devoted to the same issue) that those were written in error, and would be removed.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭emaherx


    I don't even know what you mean about the thread I was asked to start? By who? can they not start that thread? can you? or anyone else?

    I actually don't keep saying tool shed, although others may have. Yes we'd all love to have all of our sheds with detailed labels except for one that can't be for security reasons, that scenario would literally highlight one building in most yards with a high level of labelling as "the goods are in here lads"



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    Farmers want there buildings labeled only as “agricultural building”

    What about a Biological research facility, should this be labeled as "Industrial Building"?

    Should we have generic terms for a Catholic Church and Church of Ireland? What about a Mosque.

    The crux of the whole thing is freedom of speech. This freedom can be very inconvenient, but it is a fundamental human right which should not be eroded. In my lifetime I have already seen several rights taken under the guise of either security or privacy. But a society without Freedom of speech soon turns into a Taliban or Nazi controlled one.

    emaherx and greysides might be promoting OSM as a target today, but where does it stop, soon they'd be advocating for certain people to wear a yellow star so that neighbors could keep there distance from them. Or it could be having women cover their faces and wear a Burka because they might be a distraction to other men.

    Do ye remember a time when you could go on Air travel to any part of the EU and many Holiday destinations with nothing more than a boarding-pass/Ticket?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭emaherx




  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    Poor comment Sir, is this just fishing for likes/thanks?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭emaherx


    Like comparing people to Nazi's and the Taliban? and speak of poor comment



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    Best have me Moderated so, just like the Nazi's used to do



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭emaherx




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,978 Mod ✭✭✭✭greysides


    emaherx and greysides might be promoting OSM as a target today, but where does it stop, soon they'd be advocating for certain people to wear a yellow star so that neighbors could keep there distance from them. Or it could be having women cover their faces and wear a Burka because they might be a distraction to other men.


    Post seen.


    The direction of this thread will be determined by the posts that are responded to.

    The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress. Joseph Joubert

    The ultimate purpose of debate is not to produce consensus. It's to promote critical thinking.

    Adam Grant



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,394 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I don't know what your on about here so I'll pass over the most of it. Bringing Nazis and the Taliban into a discussion about maps is absurd. And so is the sneaky Covid reference. Do ya remember a time ya could have 12 pints and drive? Wasn't it a wonderful world then.

    One thing you did highlight was this

    Should we have generic terms for a Catholic Church and Church of Ireland? What about a Mosque.

    Now how would people feel if someone came along, and from a satellite image of one of these decided that image should be labelled a Catholic Church, yet it's actually a mosque. Is that OK? As that's what the original OP on the first thread was after doing (replace church with horse thingy and mosque with slurry tower).

    It's perfectly fine in my opinion if a farmer decides, ya know what, I'm going to tag all my sheds to their individual needs on OSM. It is not fine for someone else to go and do it without said farmers knowledge. The issue is the granular level of tagging by those not in the know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Viscount Aggro


    Had a similar problem myself.

    Laneway to my house was subject to right of way dispute, think Garvaghy road type of dispute.

    They also showed a couple of archealogical features on y land that I want hidden.

    Mapmaker showed it same colour as public roadway.

    I made them do a reprint of the map, threatened legal action known as, slander of title.



  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭Easten


    It's only slander if it isn't true. If a shed that is a machinery shed is labeled as a Machinery shed then as you imply it's not a problem.



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Luttrell1975


    Wait a minute @roosterman71

    Only last night you threatened to damage an online resource that thousands of people depend upon for apps.........

    And you are offended when someone says Nazi......

    Let me mull over that for the evening.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Viscount Aggro


    Its a legal tactic, you threaten them, its a signal they will be financially destroyed if they dont comply.



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Luttrell1975


    If only we were allowed discuss laws here I would tell you something like Slander of Title requires you to prove that the details on Mapmaker were maliciously published to harm you AND that you asked for these details to be amended with a reasonable deadline. Any good solicitor would send you packing. You must have got the intern that day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Luttrell1975


    I think you mean its a bluff, a poker play. Like saying maps cause crime.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,394 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Mull away. While yer mulling, read what I said. Be a kind soul too while yer not tagging to point out where I was offended. Read the words and don't infer feelings based on said words.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,394 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Do ye remember a time when you could go on Air travel to any part of the EU and many Holiday destinations with nothing more than a boarding-pass/Ticket?

    I believe this is a reference to the need for a covid vaccine code and/or PCR/antigen test. If it's something else I apologise for the assumption but please tell me what you were inferring



  • Registered Users Posts: 190 ✭✭Luttrell1975


    So what you want me to do is take nothing you say literally, and treat everything as if its some mood you are having.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,181 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    "At this stage I am at the conclusion when you argue with a fool, he’s doing the same thing" - touche.

    My GDPR quote directly related to your assertion that "The dept of Agriculture has detailed maps of all agricultural holdings, those same maps are available to anyone by requesting through the freedom of Information Act." and If you want you a can pay the likes of espacial to provide similar information, but they charge, at least openstreetmap is free.

    Regarding SFP. No one other that DAFM staff and my advisor have access to the information contained within my application incl land parcel details and other features on my private property. The only features labelled on my DAFM SFP application map are roads, individual parcel numbers, yard, scrub, historical archaeological site and lake. Individual buildings are not labelled neither is my house identified. You state that anyone can scroll and see the details of their land but also their neighbours land that constitutes their SFP application. "Check your own Sfp parcels, look at the detailed information on the maps. Houses, farm buildings are identified. Then scroll the map and look at the next farm, again building information is recorded on the Map, not the owner just the building type."

    The only people with access to my SFP application maps are DAFM.



This discussion has been closed.
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