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OpenStreetMap Unnecessary Public Listing of our Farm Buildings / Features

emaherx

I am starting this thread to raise awareness of individuals who may take it upon themselves to map our properties in great detail on wiki style maps such as OpenStreetMap.org .

As recently discussed in the now closed Slurry Pits thread https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058219361/slurry-pits/p1, a volunteer mapper came to F&F for information on how best to identify certain farm features such as slurry pits. I don't believe the mapper in question meant any harm however this activity raises some serious security and privacy issues that affect us all as property owners.

Further concerns were raised when a poster discovered a local farm had building labels like "Machinery Shed" and another farm although in another jurisdiction had "fuel tanks" labelled. These labels do go against OpenStreetMaps guidelines and were removed when pointed out however I feel that some of the labels which are allowed are also unnecessary, there is also the fact that it should not be up to us to discover unapproved labels and request their removal.

I am not against open maps and community sourced data, we all probably use software which relies heavily on these sort of projects and I'm not looking to start a war on OpenStreetMap.org however I can see no legitimate reason for them to map the usage of individual farm buildings and other structures on our farms. I have sent an e-mail to board@openstreetmap.ie requesting they limit labelling of farm buildings to agricultural building or simply building, I've yet to receive a response.

-----------------------------------------------------Content of e-mail---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

I am contacting you on behalf of a small group of farmers concerned about the unnecessary labeling of Agricultural building use on private property.

We have no particular issue with community mapping in general except with listing and classification of structures and features on our private properties which has no public significance except perhaps as a tool for some unwelcome guests, we feel a searchable map containing information about farm and building types pose unnecessary security and privacy risks to what is not just our place of business but in most cases the place where we live.

Surely a label of agricultural building or simply building should be sufficient for a street map.

We have also come across a few instances where buildings were given name tags beyond the normal building type tags which causes us most concern, especially if buildings are going to be named with keywords like Workshop, Machine shed, Tool store, Fuel storage etc.

As I'm sure you are aware there is a discussion on the subject on boards.ie which highlighted the issue when a mapper raised questions about how to identify certain structure types on our farms. We struggle to understand why an outsider would want to map our properties to such detail, it is certainly not to our advantage as we have our own tailored mapping software packages to cover the needs of our farms. Also as highlighted by the mapper the likelihood of mappers misidentifying certain agricultural structures is quite high due to low resolution aerial photos or the mapper not understanding what they see, this also has the potential of drawing unnecessary attention from certain groups to properties not even engaged in the listed activity.

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greysides

Mod

The level of personal insults here has gotten out of hand. I'm closing this thread and asking another mod to look through it.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298637#Comment_118298637

Yes only the DAFM or you can view your SFP application, so what. Nobody wants or cares to see your SFP application. It's the mapping system that shows buildings and features that is available. It doesn't identify the owners, just the features. I never implied that any PII was available from using the mapping system.

You clearly cannot understand that a hayshed labeled as a Hayshed on a Map is not part of your PII.

Anyway,

Enough is enough at this stage, it's like trying to explain something to the Smiley Amadán sitting at the back of the class in junior infants

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298938#Comment_118298938

They can keep their views, just not ram it into peoples heads through the education system.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298759#Comment_118298759

You must be an incredibly lazy individual.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118292480#Comment_118292480

At the least can you respect their beliefs and get it right.

God created the world in 6 days and took the 7th day off to rest.

The 7th day is for reflection and prayer.

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284267#Comment_118284267

I'm still waiting for evidence of satellite or commercial maps that label structures on private property other than historical/archaeological monuments or geological structures - "Not when every satellite image and commercial map available tells you exactly the same thing."

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298635#Comment_118298635

Never said I was offended

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118286319#Comment_118286319

"At this stage I am at the conclusion when you argue with a fool, he’s doing the same thing" - touche.

My GDPR quote directly related to your assertion that "The dept of Agriculture has detailed maps of all agricultural holdings, those same maps are available to anyone by requesting through the freedom of Information Act." and If you want you a can pay the likes of espacial to provide similar information, but they charge, at least openstreetmap is free.

Regarding SFP. No one other that DAFM staff and my advisor have access to the information contained within my application incl land parcel details and other features on my private property. The only features labelled on my DAFM SFP application map are roads, individual parcel numbers, yard, scrub, historical archaeological site and lake. Individual buildings are not labelled neither is my house identified. You state that anyone can scroll and see the details of their land but also their neighbours land that constitutes their SFP application. "Check your own Sfp parcels, look at the detailed information on the maps. Houses, farm buildings are identified. Then scroll the map and look at the next farm, again building information is recorded on the Map, not the owner just the building type."

The only people with access to my SFP application maps are DAFM.

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118298535#Comment_118298535

So what you want me to do is take nothing you say literally, and treat everything as if its some mood you are having.

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297646#Comment_118297646

Do ye remember a time when you could go on Air travel to any part of the EU and many Holiday destinations with nothing more than a boarding-pass/Ticket?

I believe this is a reference to the need for a covid vaccine code and/or PCR/antigen test. If it's something else I apologise for the assumption but please tell me what you were inferring

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297723#Comment_118297723

Mull away. While yer mulling, read what I said. Be a kind soul too while yer not tagging to point out where I was offended. Read the words and don't infer feelings based on said words.

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297734#Comment_118297734

I think you mean its a bluff, a poker play. Like saying maps cause crime.....

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297677#Comment_118297677

If only we were allowed discuss laws here I would tell you something like Slander of Title requires you to prove that the details on Mapmaker were maliciously published to harm you AND that you asked for these details to be amended with a reasonable deadline. Any good solicitor would send you packing. You must have got the intern that day.

Viscount Aggro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297717#Comment_118297717

Its a legal tactic, you threaten them, its a signal they will be financially destroyed if they dont comply.

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297553#Comment_118297553

Wait a minute @roosterman71

Only last night you threatened to damage an online resource that thousands of people depend upon for apps.........

And you are offended when someone says Nazi......

Let me mull over that for the evening.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297677#Comment_118297677

It's only slander if it isn't true. If a shed that is a machinery shed is labeled as a Machinery shed then as you imply it's not a problem.

Viscount Aggro

Had a similar problem myself.

Laneway to my house was subject to right of way dispute, think Garvaghy road type of dispute.

They also showed a couple of archealogical features on y land that I want hidden.

Mapmaker showed it same colour as public roadway.

I made them do a reprint of the map, threatened legal action known as, slander of title.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297553#Comment_118297553

Covid reference? where?

roosterman71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297412#Comment_118297412

I don't know what your on about here so I'll pass over the most of it. Bringing Nazis and the Taliban into a discussion about maps is absurd. And so is the sneaky Covid reference. Do ya remember a time ya could have 12 pints and drive? Wasn't it a wonderful world then.

One thing you did highlight was this

Should we have generic terms for a Catholic Church and Church of Ireland? What about a Mosque.

Now how would people feel if someone came along, and from a satellite image of one of these decided that image should be labelled a Catholic Church, yet it's actually a mosque. Is that OK? As that's what the original OP on the first thread was after doing (replace church with horse thingy and mosque with slurry tower).

It's perfectly fine in my opinion if a farmer decides, ya know what, I'm going to tag all my sheds to their individual needs on OSM. It is not fine for someone else to go and do it without said farmers knowledge. The issue is the granular level of tagging by those not in the know.

greysides

emaherx and greysides might be promoting OSM as a target today, but where does it stop, soon they'd be advocating for certain people to wear a yellow star so that neighbors could keep there distance from them. Or it could be having women cover their faces and wear a Burka because they might be a distraction to other men.

Post seen.

The direction of this thread will be determined by the posts that are responded to.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297475#Comment_118297475

I've no need to, but thanks.

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297461#Comment_118297461

Best have me Moderated so, just like the Nazi's used to do

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297446#Comment_118297446

Like comparing people to Nazi's and the Taliban? and speak of poor comment

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297439#Comment_118297439

Poor comment Sir, is this just fishing for likes/thanks?

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118297412#Comment_118297412

Have you been drinking?

Easten

Farmers want there buildings labeled only as “agricultural building”

What about a Biological research facility, should this be labeled as "Industrial Building"?

Should we have generic terms for a Catholic Church and Church of Ireland? What about a Mosque.

The crux of the whole thing is freedom of speech. This freedom can be very inconvenient, but it is a fundamental human right which should not be eroded. In my lifetime I have already seen several rights taken under the guise of either security or privacy. But a society without Freedom of speech soon turns into a Taliban or Nazi controlled one.

Do ye remember a time when you could go on Air travel to any part of the EU and many Holiday destinations with nothing more than a boarding-pass/Ticket?

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118296622#Comment_118296622

I don't even know what you mean about the thread I was asked to start? By who? can they not start that thread? can you? or anyone else?

I actually don't keep saying tool shed, although others may have. Yes we'd all love to have all of our sheds with detailed labels except for one that can't be for security reasons, that scenario would literally highlight one building in most yards with a high level of labelling as "the goods are in here lads"

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118296404#Comment_118296404

I see what you did there. You re-framed me responding to people claiming they have "privacy rights" or a "right to privacy" (what is a right? Something you can vindicate in law.) as if it was about misquoting laws. I must be living in your head rent-free if that's the case. Go on, start the thread you were asked to start. Reframe it as laws... I dare you.

Both of these articles are a joke. "Can"..................... think about that...... "can". Where is the proof that they did? Its not about being dumb, its about the fact that maps can be wrong, out of date and they use real world factors not seen on maps like CCTV, gate defences, alarms, lights, dogs, humans as their considerations. How do we know this? Go to the crime prevention seminars where the Gardai go through actual confessions where they require people to give full details about how they planned their crime. I have no fears for the intelligence of criminals. I do have fears for the intelligence of some people posting here though. The two publications have no reality filter in their journalism, just drivel that they know their readers will want to hear. You have got to be kidding.

You keep on saying that there are searchable features with tool shed being the worst. The mappers told you on the other thread (devoted to the same issue) that those were written in error, and would be removed.

emaherx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118294691#Comment_118294691

Well at least that is certainly the conversation we are having rather than trying to trip any one up for misquoting the law.

No, how could I, is there such an accessible and detailed map of all the functions of our agricultural buildings in existence yet? even OSM only has a few hundred agricultural buildings listed so far, so in essence is far from complete, but will grow in time. We have encountered at least one mapper who is very enthusiastic to map every detail that they can including horse walkers and ESB poles and basically any identifiable features because they are there. I've no particular issue with the ESB poles as they are part of public infrastructure, but that is the minute level of detail some mappers would like.

Are you suggesting criminals are too dumb to read map especially one with a list of farm assets searchable by keyword? It would be fairly naïve to believe such tools couldn't be used in planning a crime. I have my doubts that a burglar after being caught gives a detailed account of how they had planned their crimes.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/criminals-using-drones-and-google-maps-to-survey-farms-600172

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/news/rural-crime/rural-crime-gangs-using-drones-and-online-mapping-apps-to-case-out-farms-39196957.html

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118292480#Comment_118292480

Why is it a fake privacy argument?

It very much is a real privacy argument.

It is none of your business or anyone elses (not including legitimate authorities) what a farmer uses their sheds for no more than it is anyone's business what you use your garden shed for.

And I don't see how a legitimate privacy argument is anyway comparable to debating a religious idea of creation.

This whole thing is very much along the lines of the modern thought process of "I have a right to do what I want and screw the rest of ye".

The modern societal idea with a lot of people is rights with no responsibilities.

Luttrell1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118293603#Comment_118293603

Someone is arguing on a message board. What will they think of next? Smash the internet.