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OpenStreetMap Unnecessary Public Listing of our Farm Buildings / Features



  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭ Luttrell1975

    The moderator doesn't want the legal sub-issues explored. This shows that you are even less able than emaherx initially was to grasp that no aspect of GDPR applies since there is no PII on a map. The only matter that might be handled in this way (again under laws that emaherx and the moderator don't want to discuss) is military establishments under the XXXXXX XXXXXXX😉 Act. There is very little case law here but a court hearing a claim or a contested order facilitated under the mystery Act would also have to consider the heritage value of the building which is why even the Department of Defence doesn't exercise the power to secrecy that you seem to crave.

  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭ Luttrell1975

    I think we would all love to see you prove anything in the contents of this post. Go ahead, we are patient....

  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭ Easten

    I did read your post, as I said you are trying to fudge the subject by implying that GDPR is some sort of caveat to the labelling of buildings.

    Again I will repeat for the last time GDPR relates ONLY to personal data, not to buildings or any other structure. An example of a GDPR violation wrt mapping would be to put the name of someone on there house within openstreetmaps.

    Check your own Sfp parcels, look at the detailed information on the maps. Houses, farm buildings are identified. Then scroll the map and look at the next farm, again building information is recorded on the Map, not the owner just the building type.

    If you can't do that then get your teagasc advisor to show you.

    If you want you a can pay the likes of espacial to provide similar information, but they charge, at least openstreetmap is free.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,216 ✭✭✭✭ Base price


    The current legislation for Data Protection in Ireland is the Data Protection Act 1988 as amended by the 2003 Data Protection Act, The Data Protection Act 2018 and The General Data Protection Regulations (EU 2016/679) which came into effect on 25 May 2018. (It should be noted that the 1988 Data Protection Act as amended in 2003 will likely be repealed in full, in due course).

    If the Department receives any information which leads it to believe that a criminal offence may have taken place it will use all data available, including personal data, to pursue any necessary investigation and/or prosecution as provided for under the terms of the Law Enforcement Directive (EU 2016/680).

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,216 ✭✭✭✭ Base price

    Apologies as I got waylayed feeding meal to a few heifer calves that are out.

    Where will your personal information be shared?

    At the point of collection of your personal data (e.g. in the application form) information should be provided on where the personal data you are providing will be shared. At all times it will only be shared where there is a valid legal basis to do so and in accordance with the appropriate Data Protection legislation.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 849 ✭✭✭ Easten


    you are quoting European legislation for the protection of natural persons in relation to the processing of personal data. A cowshed in a field is not someone's personal data.

    At this stage I am at the conclusion when you argue with a fool, he’s doing the same thing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,103 ✭✭✭✭ _Brian

    It’s not public knowledge though.

    labelling a building as workshop or fuel store is nothing but speculation by people who know no difference. Bit might be enough to encourage some knacker to chance their arm for a haul of tools.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,187 ✭✭✭ Say my name

    This point has seriously been missed by the protagonists in the thread.

    It's almost like it's considered a game.

    Far from a game this is real life that the home and farm owners will have to endure which there's no need for.

    I seriously can't understand why a swimming pool is off limits but all the buildings and stores on a farm are considered fair game. Now you could say there's the fear of a pool tax or some perv being tempted in but the very same argument could be put on labels on farm buildings. There are weirdos out there!

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭ emaherx

    Exactly, backyard off limits unless it has a cowshed in it, suddenly it's fair game.

  • Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭ mr.stonewall

    The labelling of this information is often quiet sensitive for commerical purposes. Think about this for a second. Images or mapping that the the DAFM have were released or hacked. This mapping has quiet a substantial info, farmyard structures covered from grant aid, drainage and even badger sets. The DAFM have a responsibility to only use this information for the purpose of conducting their business and a serious amount of money is used to keep this secure under GDPR.

    When you think about the council and planning applications, the way this is displayed to the public is very different to the format of Opensource mapping. Each request to view requires you to open each planning file and often referenced in this is the GDPR policy.

    These 2 examples work off of verified data, unlike Opensource which is an assumption that a feature is a feature

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,923 ✭✭✭ Furze99

    I think it's an interesting debate. As the OP & others have pointed out, we live in an age of rapidly changing technology and the proliferation of information gathering. There are two aspects that struck me, first when I went to search a little about open street map that despite the emphasis on this being a volunteer community project, that huge sums of money are being invested in it by the large multi national 'information' giants. Why? One reason is that Google has been heavily involved in this type of information gathering, is that this type of information is what binds together a lot of their marketing and advertising sales and delivery of product. Whether this is good or bad I don't know but information is currency and has value. And if that information includes details on farms, it's all grist to the mill.

    The second is that farmers whether they like or not are being 'checked' from the sky. There are companies that have contracts to monitor land use in conjunction with compliance for various EU farm payment schemes. The so called 'eye in the sky'. There's not much you can hide nowadays.

  • Registered Users Posts: 30,685 ✭✭✭✭ listermint

    Isn't this how mapping has been done for centuries though... Has the OP looked at maps from the 1700s and forward. Its how history of an area is collected over time... Maybe individual labels is extreme but labelling farms or rights of way its all been done before. Just now quicker with technology.

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,187 ✭✭✭ Say my name

    Not to this extreme though.

    Cow houses were called farm offices then and that was only purely for the landlords interest when the rents were due.

    The farm offices are not labelled on the osi maps.

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,103 ✭✭✭✭ _Brian

    for me the crux of this is the lack of respect to be allowed keep one’s private property information private.

    im not going to argue the legal position because honestly I don’t know it.

    but morally putting a signpost to a man’s yard on the internet that x shed is full of tools or diesel is wrong, the old “loose lips sink ships” springs to mind, locally if you were blabbing another man’s business to unsavoury types you’d “be spoken to” some night.

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭ K.G.

    Could anyone tell us what possible positive purpose is served by labelling Farm buildings on these maps. Legalities or otherwise I just can't understand how someone could waste their time labelling farm buildings when anyone who's in the farming game can tell what ever building is just by looking at it.maybe floorplans of houses and the entrances should be put on it with the room labelled.we had a situation near here where a farmer had a drone checking out his yard and buildings,where s the line here

  • Registered Users Posts: 18,103 ✭✭✭✭ _Brian

    far as the reasons put forward so far it’s a case of “we are doing it because we can and you can’t stop us”

  • Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭ mr.stonewall

    Im thinking of getting one to the sheds roofs this summer and painting in big letters "P1ss off Google"

    Who wants the data. Very simply anyone with an idea to make money, from lads planning solar panels to my country cousins with so called lamping.

    Information is power. Too much and it's uncontrollable. Just look at what Mehole and Leaky Leo did to gag Tony and the boys.

    I personally have no issue with buildings being labelled farm buildings, but exact descriptions, which are sensitive to my business I do.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,923 ✭✭✭ Furze99

    You've hit the nail there, this information is useful to a range of businesses. We are in the information age and there's money going into gathering information for data mining purposes. There maybe nerds sitting in apartments putting these features on these maps but the drivers now are big business. Can you or I resist though? I doubt it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭ mr.stonewall

    While you or I can't change it individually a stand taken by a number of people can be enough to change the policy direction regarding classification of certain items with Opensource mapping. Remember the noisy wheel gets the oil

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,216 ✭✭✭✭ Base price

    The details of my SFP application are covered by GDPR - although our payments have been made public.

    Are you stating that the details of my SFP application through DAFM is available to buy on the web via espacial or similar type sites ??

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  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭ Luttrell1975

    So how many times would someone have to say it, for you to accept it? The OP has accepted it (though she didn't want to initially😁), that making a map based on several publicly available satellite images is not the same as processing personal data, which is data relating to a person also known as PII in the Act you mentioned there.

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,469 ✭✭✭ roosterman71

    The OSM advocates here are still listening to the little voices in their heads. No contributor here is against the mapping. The problem is the labelling. Label the building as shed/agricultural shed/something generic. It's the "tool shed" and "machinery shed" level of labelling that's the problem. No one other than me/family/employees knows what my sheds are used for. They are the only ones that need to know. Some gimp with a labelling fetish labelling things, often times arseways, has no business in doing that. Volunteer or not, this info is being scraped by the big contributors to OSM (Facebook/Apple/Microsoft). The volunteers are essentially free employees to this crowd.

    The request here is to label things generically, not with such detail. Everyone happy then I think.

    For the craic I'll probably start labelling random things as mad stuff altogether. Be great fun. Will through a few bunkers and things into housing estates. Label garden sheds as home offices, etc. No one can stop me it seems and no one allegedly cares.

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,923 ✭✭✭ Furze99

    Sure you could probably sign up and relabel Dáil Eireann in Dublin as a sewage plant!

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭ emaherx

    Lads, I'd leave the talk of sabotage out its not likely to achieve anything apart from having the conversation shut down completely. Also I'm sure undoing all edits by particular users is likely a relatively simple task.

    From what OSM have told me, it is the community that makes decisions on what is appropriate to map or not, there may be corporate interests in data collected but apparently they don't decide on what should or shouldn't be labelled, it is the community. It would probably be far more use if they knew there was concern in the farming community than it is to do anything malicious. Apart from anything else you may find that you are already using software built around their API, or may even need to in the future.

  • Registered Users Posts: 863 ✭✭✭ mr.stonewall

    Has the OPM community been open to the concept of renaming farm buildings generically.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,678 ✭✭✭✭ jmayo

    I remember interesting story told at one of those pre GDPR conferences about the use of mapping to trawl for prospective customers so to speak.

    A solicitor had been asked if it was ok for a charity to cross match google maps and I think something like voter/census information to pinpoint prospective clients.

    The charity worked on getting older people to bequeath sums of money in their wills.

    Now what some bright spark wanted to do was target elderly people who had nice big gardens and big houses in the towns/cities.

    The charity was advised they couldn't cold call people like this, but who is to say some other organisation/company is not targeting people based on maps.

    People have no idea how their data and how even the satelite mapping imagery of their homes and businesses are going to be used.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,532 ✭✭✭ Ubbquittious

    Back in the day if you wanted to contribute to openstreetmap you had to have a GPS and physically walk or drive down the trail and then upload it.

    Don't think a lot of openstreetmap contributors are doing that anymore, instead just taking Google earth pics and tracing out the lines.

    I was caught on the hop last year taking a group of ppl out for a walk. What I thought was a public road on the map was actually just a path through a field of bulls. Had to take a massive longcut to get around that. Whoever made that trail on the map clearly fcuked up

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭ emaherx

    This was part of the response I received by mail from a board member.

    "But if there is a legitimate concern about the level of tagging it is a conversation we can have with the wider OpenStreetMap community in Ireland as well."

    It is entirely possible that they do not have a need for this level of building labelling, but have merely not considered the level of upset the issue may cause. They have a work in progress policy document which covers things that they have considered by consensus of their community as appropriate or not to be labelled along with what labels may be used.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,103 ✭✭✭✭ _Brian

    Why wouldn’t you just accept our position that we don’t want this detailed labelling and just use the term “agricultural building”, why would you insist on going against farmers ??

This discussion has been closed.