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The Omicron variant

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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭igCorcaigh


    I guess, it's a question of how to proceed in the face of uncertainty. What would you do? Would you use your wishes to be your assumptions? And the "significant chance" is a bad phrasing on my part. It implies measure, which we do not have. A prospect, or potential risk, perhaps are better words to describe what we might see.

    But we do have some clues, and there are encouraging signs of how this variant may play out in terms of severity, just our confidence is fairly low just now.

    What would you do?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney


    This is about getting away from a doubling time of 2 to 3 days.

    Between today and January 1st there are 22 days. So there's potential for somewhere between 11 and 7 doublings to occur at the current rate.

    I'm not sure how many probable SGTF cases they had today, but it was over 900 yesterday so lets run with that...

    Doubling every 3 days:

    900×2×2×2×2×2×2×2=115,200 omicron cases per day by January 1st

    Doubling every 2 days:

    900×2×2×2×2×2×2×2×2×2×2×2=1,843,200 omicron cases per day by January 1st

    If it's closer to 2 days than 3, then even if only 1 person per thousand ends up in the hospital then they'll be under pressure.

    So as I said, which you called stupid, they don't have the luxury of waiting for hard data. Exponential growth is a geebag.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 167 ✭✭Mango321


    Second Irish Omicron genome uploaded to GISAID (Dublin; last one was from Meath).





  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    What would i do? Masks in indoor public spaces for starters and antigen tests for nightclubs etc. but no Covid certs. There is enough public awareness so no need to hammer on and blaming anti vaxxers. Beyond that there is not much more you can do to stop the spread. Boosters might protect the vulnerable but won't stop infections. We just have to roll with it. That is different from saying:' let it rip' which was always rather disingenuous. And its not like a thermostat in which lowering the dial leads to a predictable outcome much like the Co2 argument.

    It would have been good to have special Covid clinics to separate Covid patients from the rest but i was told the health service was worried resources might be taken away from regular health care and i assume thats why they never happened, to our detriment. And of course everyone hoped it would all just go away.

    Now, currently, the good news coming from South Africa and Botswana seems to suffer a counter attack highlighting only possible negative outcomes. It seems in the light of evidence an extremely skewed position and i suspect a deliberate attempt to steer people away from that by pushing the fear factor up which doesnt take much effort especially given the support by state sponsored media and other drama outlets.

    Plus, we HAVE been hammered by especially Delta so the fear is still there.

    I was hoping for a little more balance after the initial scare when the Omicron news broke. We started to see that happening which might have triggered some groups into thinking about ways to steer the public towards the R number, exponential growth, projections, models, the usual tactics.

    And it worked..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    And here is another scenario you dont often hear about and is more likely to happen given what we know from previous variant transitions:

    If Omicron is more transmissable and with milder symptoms it will elbow out Delta in a short period of time. So, instead of the 40.000+ Delta daily cases we might have 60.000 (?) Omicron cases and hospitalisations actually will go down w patients staying on average 2 days io 8 w Delta, let alone patients ending up in ICU which is not happening with Omicron atm. Plus, we know from previous waves (and that's why we call them that!) that there will be a peak after which cases will go down so the idea of perpetual exponential growth has its limits. But instead we seem to have the Omicron cases added to the Delta ones in scenarios which is actually LESS likely given previous experiences.

    I would give the positive scenario a 2:1 chance over a negative one. And that is a cautious view..

    Post edited by deholleboom on


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The blind leading the blind..

    The amount of advice we are getting from different sources is changing by the hour....they are now talking about a second booster for those who have not got the first one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,062 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    You mean the precise scenario everyone is hoping happens?

    The thing with your made up numbers is that you've made Omicron 50% more transmissible than Delta so it needs to be more than 50% less deadly to achieve your goal of fewer hospitalisations. Will it be so much less deadly? We don't know. It could be 50% more transmissible and only 20% less deadly in which case hospitalisations would go up.

    In reality we would just change our behaviour through additional restrictions. The UK modelled that Omicron doubling every 2 or 3 days so they changed their behaviour with the Plan B measures which will change the rate at which Omicron spreads. The scenarios that show a million cases by 1st January assume everyone behaves exactly the same as they are now. But in reality there will be changes like schools and businesses closing down over Christmas and there will be additional restrictions in the UK and probably in Ireland too.

    We're all waiting to see exactly how much more transmissible and how much less deadly Omicron is compared to Delta.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    "The companies believe that vaccinated individuals may still be protected against severe forms of the disease."

    They don't know ****.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,062 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Of course they don't know. The situation is new and evolving and they're exploring it for the first time.

    Would you prefer they say nothing until they're certain (there is no certainty in science) or tell you what they know as they find out, even if that information changes?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 236 ✭✭Bsharp


    It's that type of hyperbole that undermines science, like a good proportion of modelling estimates. Exponential growth, ad infinitum, is not how this virus is being transmitted in the real world. Better off not to equate it as such.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 853 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    I'd actually them rather tell the truth, which is that they don't know. They don't know how effective their injections will be against Omicron, governments don't know how quickly it will spread or what the overall severity picture will look like, so the best thing they could and should say right now is that it looks like it's very contagious and people should have personal responsibility particularly if they are vulnerable themselves or live with vulnerable people. 🤷‍♀️

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭rovers_runner


    Over two weeks since first known reporting, expectation is that it was around for as long as that before being detected. So a month into this and the deaths can't come quick enough for shareholders and Govt officials.



    What's an acceptable rate of death in this instance? As a factor of Delta?

    Or will every death be used as a stick to drive home new restrictions as needed by Governments and health officials?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,062 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Yeah that's true. The long term doubling showing a hundred cases today and a million cases by the end of the month, is interesting but not realistic. Its always a bit shocking to see how fast doubling can build up from a small number to a big number, but in reality the virus would probably run out of people to infect and people's behaviour would change either voluntarily or through restrictions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,062 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    That's exactly what they said. The first line in the tweet and the tweet headline both say "Preliminary lab results...". If you're reading certainty into that then that's just an inaccurate comprehension of that they have said.

    They haven't said they know one way or the other, they're telling you what they have learned so far. Preliminary means something done early before the main event. What did you take the word preliminary to mean in that context?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney


    It wasn't an epidemiological model, it was a sum. And it wasn't done as infinitum, it doubled 11 times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,401 ✭✭✭corkie


    2,324 Global Confirmed cases {BNONews}

    Denmark 577-Source

    UK 568-Source

    South Africa 398 (~77,844) Source

    Canada 65-Source

    United States 70 (~16) Source

    South Korea 60-Source

    ⓘ "At some point something inside me just clicked and I realized that I didn't have to deal with anyone's bullshit ever again."
    » “mundus sine caesaribus” «



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    I think the real problem might be more an economical issue ie large amounts of people out of work due to both symptoms of Omicron and restrictions placed on positive cases..



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And that's not how it works in the real world. You don't have every person after its doubled ten times meeting entirely new people for the eleventh time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,062 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Yes and the issue arises when we try to demonstrate what doubling actually means. There's an example doing the rounds now where you offer someone the choice of a million euro today or one single cent that doubles every day for a month. Which would you choose?

    Untitled Image

    It's a cool thought experiment but people are not inanimate objects like money. People's behaviour changes and we react to new information. So we can impose restrictions and even if we didn't, we would run out of new people to meet and infect.

    The idea of doubling every few days is interesting and it means we need to take action. It doesn't mean the virus will actually continue to double until its infecting 20m people a day in Ireland.



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  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Repeated doubling doesn't happen in the real world to the point where half the country have it and then two days later, they spread it to the other half.

    It's just not how it works.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    Booster is just a term used for a vaccination, that's all it is, another vaccination with a different term used, and vaccination was never going to stop at 1, 2, 3 or even 4 - vaccinations are seen as permanent, though health officials wont admit this. Now we have certificates for permanent vaccinations, and oblivious are the people because the term has changed to "Booster".



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭erlichbachman


    This is not even money, its numbers you're doubling, and numbers are infinite, people aren't infinite



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,421 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    The more and more people who get infected means less and less uninfected people out there.

    At the start, if people were only meeting 10 people and infecting 4, further on on the wave, someone goes out and meets 10 people, but 6 have recovered, they are hardly likely to infect all 4 of the uninfected. More like only 1 would get infected.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,062 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Why is that something the health officials or government should need to "admit". They don't "admit" that there's a new flu vaccine this year and they're will be a new one again next year.

    It's unfortunate but some dum-dums didn't listen to what they were told about the effect of vaccines and thought that a vaccine would simply mean we return to normal. Those same dum-dums are the kind of people the government need to inform even when they are inclined to misinterpret the information whatever way they want to interpret it.

    It's all about message management because if you tell these people a pessimistic message they don't want to hear then it will probably be more difficult to get them to take the precautions necessary. But if you make the message too optimistic then you risk overpromising and under delivering which creates problems down the road. If you read the big papers instead of getting your news from tabloids or facebook, then you knew what the experts were saying about how vaccines work and the possibility that new variants would arise and create uncertainty. This new variant and the need for further vaccines is a big disappointment but isn't a big surprise to anyone who was objectively reading decent sources of news.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭TonyMaloney


    Severe illness in South Africa's Omicron outbreak lower than in past waves, initial data suggests

    Early hospital data from South Africa shows fewer than a third of patients admitted for Covid during the latest wave linked to the Omicron variant are suffering severe illness, compared with two thirds in the early stages of the last two waves, Reuters reports.

    Data released by the National Institute for Communicable Diseases (NICD) for Tshwane, the metropolitan area which includes Pretoria where the first suspected Omicron outbreak occurred, showed 1,633 admissions in public and private hospitals for Covid between 14 November and 8 December.

    Of those, 31% were severe cases – defined as patients needing oxygen or mechanical ventilation – compared with 66% early in the second wave of the coronavirus pandemic and 67% in the early weeks of the first.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/dec/09/covid-news-live-england-moves-to-plan-b-three-pfizer-shots-can-neutralise-omicron-lab-tests-show?filterKeyEvents=false&page=with:block-61b212748f08cfef2cf62ff8#block-61b212748f08cfef2cf62ff8



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,289 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    I don't want to sh!t on good news, but one difference between this wave and the last one is 0->25% of the population fully vaccinated.

    Not sure how to untangle that since presumably a lot of the vaxxed are older/higher risk, so even if you looked at unvaccinated CFR with no change in virus you'd expect it to drop between these two waves.

    I guess you'd need to look at the change in CFR of comparable unvaxxed age groups between the two waves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,401 ✭✭✭corkie


    Post edited by corkie on

    ⓘ "At some point something inside me just clicked and I realized that I didn't have to deal with anyone's bullshit ever again."
    » “mundus sine caesaribus” «



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,281 ✭✭✭brickster69


    Amazing isn't it that between the 3 top blokes they do not know the answer to " how many sequences have been carried out in the last week ? "

    Unreal

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    You better check that data again.

    I mean dig a little deeper. What you'll find is that people going into hospital for non Covid related health issues were tested and found Covid positive. Some of them already had severe comorbidities and Omicron was not a big factor.

    All in all looking at the % of inpatients DUE to Covid in relation to total population and you also get a different picture..

    The SA government also keeps a tight grip on the data coming out, some of that not correct like the one The Guardian article highlighted. People did NOT come in with severe Covid. It paints a false picture. They came in because of severe illness, not severe Covid symptoms. I cant stress enough what a huge difference that makes.

    Better to check w actual on the ground people in those hospitals like the video i posted earlier and other sources..

    On a personal note: my next door neighbour has been in and out of hospital w severe illness in the last few years He contracted Covid in hospital at some point. He is still in and out. Luckily Covid didnt take him...

    Post edited by deholleboom on


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