OpenStreetMap Unnecessary Public Listing of our Farm Buildings / Features

emaherx · 02-12-2021 9:17pm #1

I am starting this thread to raise awareness of individuals who may take it upon themselves to map our properties in great detail on wiki style maps such as OpenStreetMap.org .

As recently discussed in the now closed Slurry Pits thread https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058219361/slurry-pits/p1, a volunteer mapper came to F&F for information on how best to identify certain farm features such as slurry pits. I don't believe the mapper in question meant any harm however this activity raises some serious security and privacy issues that affect us all as property owners.

Further concerns were raised when a poster discovered a local farm had building labels like "Machinery Shed" and another farm although in another jurisdiction had "fuel tanks" labelled. These labels do go against OpenStreetMaps guidelines and were removed when pointed out however I feel that some of the labels which are allowed are also unnecessary, there is also the fact that it should not be up to us to discover unapproved labels and request their removal.

I am not against open maps and community sourced data, we all probably use software which relies heavily on these sort of projects and I'm not looking to start a war on OpenStreetMap.org however I can see no legitimate reason for them to map the usage of individual farm buildings and other structures on our farms. I have sent an e-mail to board@openstreetmap.ie requesting they limit labelling of farm buildings to agricultural building or simply building, I've yet to receive a response.

-----------------------------------------------------Content of e-mail---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

I am contacting you on behalf of a small group of farmers concerned about the unnecessary labeling of Agricultural building use on private property.

We have no particular issue with community mapping in general except with listing and classification of structures and features on our private properties which has no public significance except perhaps as a tool for some unwelcome guests, we feel a searchable map containing information about farm and building types pose unnecessary security and privacy risks to what is not just our place of business but in most cases the place where we live.

Surely a label of agricultural building or simply building should be sufficient for a street map.

We have also come across a few instances where buildings were given name tags beyond the normal building type tags which causes us most concern, especially if buildings are going to be named with keywords like Workshop, Machine shed, Tool store, Fuel storage etc.

As I'm sure you are aware there is a discussion on the subject on boards.ie which highlighted the issue when a mapper raised questions about how to identify certain structure types on our farms. We struggle to understand why an outsider would want to map our properties to such detail, it is certainly not to our advantage as we have our own tailored mapping software packages to cover the needs of our farms. Also as highlighted by the mapper the likelihood of mappers misidentifying certain agricultural structures is quite high due to low resolution aerial photos or the mapper not understanding what they see, this also has the potential of drawing unnecessary attention from certain groups to properties not even engaged in the listed activity.

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blue5000 · 03-12-2021 11:26am

Thanks Emaherx for that. I had a look at our local area and there was a local garage with a spanner symbol on it. This place is a business, perhaps they wouldn't mind being on the map in case someone broke down locally and needed to find a garage nearby. But on the other hand most garages these days would have a small fortune spent on equipment, and would be a target for thieves.

I suggest we should check what's marked in your local area, and if you know someone with a building marked go talk to the owner and see if they want to remain on the map. We all know when there's a robbery there's usually local knowledge involved, but at the same time there's no need to make things this easy either.

emaherx · 03-12-2021 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118261735#Comment_118261735

Cheers Blue,

I think most businesses would be only too happy to be listed on a map like this or the likes of Google Maps, Bing Maps, Mapbox etc. as it helps customers find their premises. Being marked on the map is not what bothers me as much as the need for some to map individual features inside the farm gate, I'm sure a garage would be delighted to be a listed business, but more concerned if their 2000L fuel tank at the back of the garage was mapped and searchable by keyword. It may sound ridiculous that anyone would spend their days mapping small features but the OP of the other thread admitted to having mapped thousands of ESB poles and were now making it their business to map slurry pits.

Lime Tree Farm · 03-12-2021 4:54pm

Just another thing and I may be wrong, I noticed when I opened the web page it didn't request you accept cookies. It stated that by using the website you were accepting cookies.

Lime Tree Farm · 03-12-2021 4:59pm

Googled and found this

https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=58933

Lime Tree Farm · 03-12-2021 4:59pm

Luttrell1975 · 03-12-2021 11:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058220911/openstreetmap-unnecessary-public-listing-of-our-farm-buildings-features

But there was a response in that thread before it was closed that explained to you that the naming of things was done by an individual, which is not how the rest of the open mappers do it, and the person who answered you took away those names immediately.

I was looking forward to a legal discussion about which rights and laws exist which would stop someone using a satellite picture to make something else. If you know those laws state them. If not you should be putting the same email to Google, Bing, Apple, Amazon, and everyone else who has a web map with labels.

emaherx · 04-12-2021 10:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118266288#Comment_118266288

There was and I even covered that in the first post, but even the allowed labels are unnecessary, why is it even a thing to encourage labelling individual cow sheds, pig sheds, poultry sheds for example? Other non building features/structures don't seem to have any guidance like silo's, fuel tanks etc, and they have also been marked on maps.

Google, Bing, Apple, Amazon to my knowledge etc do not actively encourage labelling every building in what is essentially our back yards in the same manor, if you you have read my posts you would see that I have no issue with mapping businesses and addresses, but there is no useful legitimate need for our farm buildings and other features to be mapped and searchable by keyword. If you search for farms on google maps it usually shows pins of named farm locations (ie the name was added to the address by the occupier) but not to induvial buildings or other features.

As for the legality I'm not claiming anything to be legal or not, but that it is unnecessary and land owners should certainly be aware of the potential, I would also love if someone could shed some light on the legalities, certainly around the collecting of data on peoples homesteads.

If you have a legitimate useful reason for every feature of our properties to be mapped in this fashion then please share, I haven't seen anyone provide one yet.

Luttrell1975 · 04-12-2021 8:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118267638#Comment_118267638

I'm not an open mapper. The question you keep asking is based on something that the poster in the last thread told you was fixed.

The question here isn't "what is your reason to make a map of rural Ireland and include every structure like every other map". The question is "why shouldn't they, or why wouldn't they." Answer that, and we talk.

Dinzee Conlee · 04-12-2021 8:54pm

‘why shouldn’t they?’

it is not their property to be labelling or making assumptions on use
Their assumptions on labelling may put the property, contents or owner in peril from those who may use the map for nefarious purposes

emaherx · 04-12-2021 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118269892#Comment_118269892

I have no issue with them making a map of rural Ireland at all, I have a very specific issue with the labelling of buildings on private property which was partially addressed by the poster in the previous thread but far from "fixed". I personally believe as a whole that OpenStreetMaps is providing a useful service like many other map providers, this doesn't mean I don't find issue with a particular part of their service.

Why they shouldn't?

The collecting of data should have a purpose. The most basic question here should be simply, what is the purpose and who dose it serve? I haven't yet found anyone to answer this. Its easy seeing the benefit of mapping the premises of public facing businesses and services hard to see who has a legitimate benefit from listing the activities inside buildings on private property.

Not a mapper? or a farmer? or other land owner? I know you don't have to reply to this, but what is you interest in this topic?

Easten · 04-12-2021 10:30pm

I don't think you can stop people putting a label on something that is in view from a public place. The same as you cannot expect privacy if you are in a public place. The problem with satellites is that they are in space. You might own the land below but you don't own the sky above it, nor have you or even the Irish government anyway to stop it.

Unfortunately Google, Bing and OpenStreetMap are just the beginning. They are established and known, but currently there is about 12 other companies that have started creating mapping like these. Only the other day I saw a Polish camera car traveling along the N17, didn't catch the co. name but they had a similar setup to Google street cameras.

It's the new reality we are living in now, and anything that's not under a roof will be photographed and cataloged. Indeed it's probably been done already and we are only a wiki-leaks away from some European Satellite system being accessed and put on the Internet for all to see

roosterman71 · 04-12-2021 10:47pm

No one has said that images can't be taken. To be fair to google, they will pixelate stuff if you ask them. Have done it a couple of times. The issue here is, on those publicly available images, that some busybody tags items on the map without permission. And there's a very good chance that tag will be incorrect. I don't want any of my private buildings to be tagged with anything. No more than someone in a housing estate would like their back shed to be tagged with something like "bike shed"!

On OSM I've looked around my area. The amount of laneways, with gates locked that are tagged as publicly accessible is unreal. The assumption is everything is publicly accessible. I've given an example of people using my lane as a road between 2 other roads. I've had numerous cars land in the yard only to be blocked by a locked gate and then get irate about a) having to turn around and b) their car covered in shite

Easten · 04-12-2021 10:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270259#Comment_118270259

But why would someone need permission to tag an item on a map. If it is visible from a public area then you cannot trespass with your eyes. There are going to be hundreds if not thousands of these maps in the future. The next generation of phones now has the capability to 3d map an area. The data gathered from these phones will be linked to other phones data and huge detailed maps of everyplace public and private are going to be built.

The Genie is already out of the lamp

emaherx · 04-12-2021 11:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270195#Comment_118270195

There is some truth to this, but there are still rules on what can and can not be done and those rules are subject to change, its fecked up what is allowed at the moment but at the same time you cannot point your CCTV outside your gate.

emaherx · 04-12-2021 11:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270284#Comment_118270284

There will be more and more technology and sooner or later legislation changed for the better or worse to include these technologies, but it certainly does no harm to discuss the issues or even feed back to these service providers of our concerns.

roosterman71 · 04-12-2021 11:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270284#Comment_118270284

Who said it's visible from a public road? The yard is in a lane, surrounded by trees. I'm not denying that there'll be maps and they are a wonderful addition to our everyday life. But no one should be allowed tag something that isn't theirs. If I want to label my own stuff, sound. But you shouldn't have permission to do it. And you certainly shouldn't be able to mis-tag stuff. The original thread had questions around horse training rings vs slurry towers! What's on my property is my business until such time I make it someone elses by tagging it. Again, you wouldn't want someone tagging the shed behind your house as something like bike shed/car garage/lawnmower shed.

The argument of what's coming in future isn't a reason to say "ah sure feck it".

BTW, you're last 2 lines is already happening. Just look up how much info Google has on ya. But detailed maps of private stuff can't happen without the private owner agreeing.

Base price · 04-12-2021 11:58pm

I have an issue with any person/entity viewing satellite images of my home which is also my place of work and arbitrary applying labels to same without my knowledge.

We have an official Government mapping service in Ireland - Ordnance Survey Ireland (https://www.gov.ie/en/organisation/14491907-ordnance-survey-ireland/) that contains the official mapping for Ireland. They don't tag/label any home/farm/workplace within the jurisdiction. I wonder why??

The Rabbi · 05-12-2021 3:10am

Bull pen and cows shed.Maiden heifers shed on farmers property tagged.

Parents room.Daughters room on your property tagged.

Where will it all stop?

Easten · 05-12-2021 10:10am

My point is that from satellite is the same as from a public roadway, just because you own a piece of land doesn't mean you own the view into it. And yes I would object to someone tagging anything I have/own or even getting myself tagged in a photos with and without my knowledge or consent, but it happens all the time now and once it gets onto the net you just can't erase it, nor can it be policed.

As for google already doing it, yes and no. You are talking about data gathered about you, not your surroundings which it's only if you give consent that they will plus you have the right to be forgotten. Mapping your surroundings is a different beast altogether, and while you can object or turn it off, it will only take one slip up in the box ticking that we do all the time now to give a third party the right to map your surroundings. Indeed you'll find people will volunteer the information in return for some service. It could be your kids or someone else playing an augmented reality game to allow the mapping of your house.

It's will happen, people willingly give up there location information all the time now, this is just the next step. But as emarhex says, it's good to discuss this and let it be known.

Easten · 05-12-2021 10:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270356#Comment_118270356

Why not?

Lime Tree Farm · 05-12-2021 10:49am

A GP in the UK was fined recently, her neighbors objected to her video doorbell capturing their images as they came and went from their nearby home.

http://www.dataprotection.ie/en/dpc-guidance/blogs/cctv-home

emaherx · 05-12-2021 11:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271117#Comment_118271117

This is not about satellite imagery though. OpenStreetMap is not a satellite Map, it is a vector based map with every feature manually added by a community of volunteers. Every single object placed on the map becomes a searchable entity. The mappers can easily overlay satellite imagery from any of the satellite map providers or OSI maps for the purpose of mapping or simply add observations from the real world, by looking over the yard gate/wall/hedge but this has the potential to be a much more powerful tool than google maps by itself.

I am not against this type of map, I simply believe that the mappers should at least be instructed not to identify structures in farm yards that are not open to the public and in the vast majority of cases will have no desire to be mapped at all. I've no particular issue with the buildings appearing on maps as they do on the OSI maps but fail to see the usefulness of these mappers guessing what our individual structures are for.

emaherx · 05-12-2021 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271136#Comment_118271136

That is a thread all of its own, but there are issues with using CCTV in public places (including a few foot of public road at your gate). It probably can be done legally if you strictly follow the rules and are willing to assume the role of data controller and all that entails. But I'll leave that discussion here.

emaherx · 05-12-2021 11:59am

Response received:

Thanks for reaching out and apologies for the delay in sending this response.

The OpenStreetMap project is an open initiative to create and provide free geographic data such as street maps to anyone who wants them. It is a massive online collaboration, with hundreds of thousands of registered users worldwide. Many sources of map data are only available under license and through paying sizable licensing fees - something that many feel is inappropriate and something that can be addressed.

OpenStreetMap Ireland is a volunteer-led organisation setup to promote open mapping methods, improve OpenStreetMap data quality, as well as supporting the growth of skills, tools and community cohesiveness. The OpenStreetMap dataset is managed by the OpenStreetMap Foundation, registered in the UK.

Over the past 15 years, the global OpenStreetMap community has established guidance for capturing data, annotating map data as well as developing and maintaining tools for editing, managing, verifying and presenting map data. Guidance and rules are typically established through discussion and consensus. Where there are legal requirements, the OpenStreetMap Foundation takes responsibility for understanding what is required and initiating actions – when the GDPR was enacted, changes were made to the ecosystem to protect or remove relevant data.

When a map contributor identifies a new type of object or building they feel should be added to the map, they typically prepare a proposal or why, what, how it should be mapped. The proposal is then shared with the wider mapping community for comment and voting. If issues are raised with the proposal, it is not adopted by the community and either dropped or reworked.

For example, there was a proposal recently on how to capture Ogham Stones on OpenStreetMap, so a proposal was made and the discussed, and adopted: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/ogham_stone

The community is also quite diverse, with over 7 million people having edited OpenStreetMap from all kinds of backgrounds and walks of life. OpenStreetMap Ireland has clear goals to grow the diversity of the open mapping community in Ireland.

In response to the concerns raised in the boards thread, it would appear that a specific building was labelled in a manner that did not align with the established guidelines on how such building should be labelled. Abuse can exist on any data platform and OpenStreetMap takes it seriously. When responsible mappers become aware of such instances, they will typically take action and correct the issue. For more complex / complicated cases, the issue may be referred to a working group of the OpenStreetMap Foundation for review and resolution. In both cases, the local mapping community may be engaged to get additional context / insight to what is acceptable in that jurisdiction.

In the case of the labelled building highlighted, the issue was resolved within hours of being communicated. We have also checked and that level of detail is not present on other farm buildings in Ireland. Some data sources may have taken a few more hours after that to sync the changes. This is expected behaviour.

To answer the questions raised in your email:

>> If something is not clearly covered by rules above there still may be a clear consensus whatever it is OK to map it - possibly due to privacy concerns.

> Who's Consensus, we certainly have concerns?

“Community” in the context of the relevant document is referring to the OpenStreetMap community. Decisions made by the community are typically done by consensus.

>> Do not map where individual people live, in particular do not add the names of inhabitants to dwellings.

> Most Farms in this country are residential farms i.e. where people live.

I believe this would be the case in most of the world. Even with the large farms in the US.

>> As an international project, we should respect personal information as well as the consensus in the community about them

> How is consensus in the community gauged? How many farmers/ rural dwellers were consulted?

“Community” in the context of the relevant document is referring to the OpenStreetMap community. The document in question is still under development and we have agreed to engage the document owner to progress its development and raise some of the concerns you have raised.

>> Limit the detail of mapping private backyards.

> Often no boundary between backyards and farmyards especially on older and/or smaller holdings

Agreed. The OpenStreetMap community is very familiar with boundaries, their evolution and complexity in Ireland.

I hope this email provides some background to the OpenStreetMap project and how it is organised. The OpenStreetMap Ireland is open to feedback from all parties with a view of developing the approach to open data and open mapping in Ireland.

If there is any additional information we can provide, do not hesitate to get in touch.

Best regards,

emaherx · 05-12-2021 12:10pm

There are some points clarified.

But basically what is or not acceptable to be mapped is decided by consensus in their community.

I did not start this thread as an attack on OpenStreetMap and can see some potential usefulness in the project concerned, I started it to raise some awareness to other land owners and suggest anyone else with concerns to voice them to the project by email as I have, you never now they may even listen to some of our points. I have replied to them letting them know that I feel they have too many labels for identifying individual farming activities and suggested that agricultural building/structure should be more than sufficient for the purpose of a street map. It may well be ignored but it will hardly do any harm.

Easten · 05-12-2021 12:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271352#Comment_118271352

Yes of course it is a Map at the end of the day that started out as either OSI or satellite raster imagery that were vectorize, no big deal there. But a large amount of data within the map has been collected from satellite imagery, much more than other map sources. People updating information on the map are cross referencing other maps and imagery such as Google earth or services such as bing.

While I don't like having my land mapped or structures identified, I don't see the big deal, and in a way it's only right that the public should know what is in the area around them

Luttrell1975 · 05-12-2021 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270091#Comment_118270091

I get the feeling you would like to disqualify me, so this is a probe to ad hominem. Put it this way, I do web publishing and by the way you keep talking I see already that I know more about privacy than you. You should look that up.

Luttrell1975 · 05-12-2021 2:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270284#Comment_118270284

Exactly. And we still await some listing of where PII is captured or what law is broken from the OP.

Luttrell1975 · 05-12-2021 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118270416#Comment_118270416

What law is that?

Say my name · 05-12-2021 2:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271546#Comment_118271546

You've failed to see it from the business/farmers point of view.

Take a local stainless steel plant to me. There's no public allowed on site nor pictures allowed be put on social media from workers. Why?

Because it would be against company policy and erode their commercial advantage. Their buildings will never have each of it's uses listed on open street maps. Mostly because the public even if looking in still wouldn't know what they're looking at. The company wouldn't give that data away to have it listed publicly. And rightly so. It's their right to have that.

What we see here is contributers to open street map wondering what are they looking at at features and buildings on farms. Just because they want to list them up on a public site and to have more detailed information available to fee paying licence holders.

Your farms buildings info is making the foundation revenue from selling on to licence holders. They encourage volunteers to identify the use of grey boxes on maps and then they sell on that info.

It's immoral, pure and simple.

Not to mention the opportunity for johnnie thief from finglas to use that info.

It's wrong on so many levels.

But the open street map are just seeing revenue to gain for themselves so they're pressing ahead.

Easten · 05-12-2021 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271980#Comment_118271980

The same company should follow proper intellectual property protection process like registering their manufacturing process if they want to keep it protected as their efforts to keep it private by trying to ban employees from from posting pictures on social media will eventually fail. What is this "right" that they have otherwise?

If open-maps are making something that benefits people then why shouldn't they make a profit from it. If that's immoral to you then your first port of call should be to the owners of Boards,ie ltd as they are making money off the back of you too. Or what about Meta, they have algorithms that can box you off as a type of person, your age, sex, ethnicity, what you work at, how much you earn by the time you have hit the like button 60 times.

Do you have some morality meter to reference?

Say my name · 05-12-2021 3:12pm

And another thing numerous posters have posted that they'd have no objection in the grey boxes being labelled as agricultural buildings myself included.

The objection is the distinct labelling of each individual box into it's exact use.

Those boxes can be labelled falsely as well but the main objection is the breaking down of each building and what particular purpose it's for.

The generic labelling of agricultural buildings was mentioned to contributers of osm but they didn't seem to be interested in that. Why?

Because they want to know more.

Generic labelling won't increase usage of open street map and people won't pay for that info.

They won't allow a swimming pool behind someone's house be labelled but will allow distinction as to where the most valuable items are stored in a business premises.

That shows the ideological naive thinking of a Web based business owner with a swimming pool out the back.

emaherx · 05-12-2021 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271874#Comment_118271874

Not in the slightest, just wondering where you interest lies? But won't loose sleep over either.

You may well know more about privacy than me, good for you, I'm not even sure that fact is relevant or if it was meant to be some kind of counter argument. I'm simply having a discussion anyone is welcome to join in.

Fluppen · 05-12-2021 4:23pm

I'm definitely not a fan of this type of mapping or any of the satellite imagery on private property. I happen to live on a farm down a long lane and I enjoyed the fact that even relatively local people assumed that my lane was simply a field access. It made the yard very quiet and meant I had no uninvited visitors.

Now people can simply look online and see what there is that might be worth stealing. I feel like groups such as open maps should be discouraged from labeling buildings. It even feels invasive that some random volunteer is mapping my house and sheds which are not visible from the road.

I have no idea around the legal issues, I just know that it makes me feel less safe.

emaherx · 05-12-2021 8:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118271905#Comment_118271905

Maybe reread the posts, I don't believe there are actually any legal claims made about PII or specific broken laws.

The discussion topic is about "unnecessary public listing of farm buildings"

This is not a legal forum, it is F&F and we are discussing the above along with the associated privacy and security concerns relating to buildings on our farms. If you understand privacy better than me you would surely know that privacy laws in Ireland are not always particularly clear, so I feel it is OK to mention privacy without being completely versed in privacy law. While PII and Data Protection are more clearly defined in law, I don't believe they have been discussed or are actually relevant in this particular discussion. They may have been mistakenly mentioned in the previous thread but I'm Ok with admitting that mistake.

Luttrell1975 · 05-12-2021 10:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272168#Comment_118272168

My interest in when people start talking about privacy rules that don't exist.

Yes, you went with "unnecessary public listing of farm buildings" - but you were asked to do one that was legal. The law is black and white, there are no grey areas as said by one poster here.

What are you actually now saying(!), are you saying that the law is insufficient to cover the concerns of some of people here who want nothing mapped on their farm? If you did then you are correct.

emaherx · 05-12-2021 11:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118274544#Comment_118274544

That's fair enough, I can accept where you are coming from.

No idea what you are trying to say here? Are you annoyed I didn't start a different thread that better suits your argument? I may have been asked to start a more legal one by another poster but I didn't, I'm pretty sure I didn't have to.

As for privacy law it is far from black and white the more I look into it the grayer it looks , there has been reports commissioned on that very fact in several European Countries including Ireland. Dose the fact that it's complicated invalidate us discussing it or is it that you'd rather just laugh at a bunch of dumb farmers misquoting data protection laws in place if privacy law? At least I'm looking into what is concerning me and willing to admit where I've been mistaken previously but I still don't believe any of that takes from my original post.

At the end of the day we are discussing a real issue that concerns us, we can still discuss it whether or not the law is on our sides, as far as I am aware discussion on the topic is allowed either way.

The Rabbi · 06-12-2021 1:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118272347#Comment_118272347

The salesmen with the next wonder mineral or suppliment that find out you live down there are the nusance.

Luttrell1975 · 06-12-2021 1:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118274980#Comment_118274980

I don't mean to be harsh, so take this in the spirit is meant if you want me to reply. You were asked to do a legal thread, so that the privacy laws could be discussed in how they apply to maps. YOU, (not me), CHOSE, to do a thread that suited YOUR purpose. There are no grey areas in the laws. Which laws have grey areas, do tell? That's a kop-out.

I read everything you wrote, and while you are not the least well informed you do come from the same place as some of the other posters here who think that your cowsheds and slurry silos bear some kind of heightened crime risk if placed on a map. Open Street Maps gave you answers about what they do. You repeatedly asking what its all for is nothing more than pretending there is PII processing here, because that is the only law where the purpose of holding data can be queried. When will you accept this?

I like the person who said it was a moral thing. At least that person is willing to be realistic and honest and admit they are shaky ground.

emaherx · 06-12-2021 8:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118275556#Comment_118275556

Yes, asked by another poster, not a divine power, they are free to start threads in legal discussion too. So yes ME not YOU decided to open this thread for MY purposes, which was simply raising awareness on something I felt was an issue (this is how discussion boards work 😉). I know what being the OP entails, I've opened threads before. But I'm unsure as to why this in particular bothers you at such a personal level.

Truthfully, I think you absolutely do mean to sound harsh, your very first post in the other thread was literally you laughing at us, as you thought we were a bunch of luddites, which couldn't actually be further from the truth.

You have been the only person in this thread to bring up the topic of PII and claim to have superior knowledge of privacy, but have done little to demonstrate it, except constantly trying to make it a GDPR topic, I am guessing you want to test the knowledge you've gained from a 5 min work related GDPR slideshow presentation.

I have simply raised an issue of concern with my fellow farmers and engaged in a conversation with the organisation in question. I have not sought any legal advice here or elsewhere. I believe there are privacy and potentially security issues, but you are right I have no legal training or qualification, I doubt many here have including yourself.

As for Legal grey area around privacy. Report is from 2006, perhaps much has changed since then including the introduction of GDPR, but it demonstrates how the simple interpretation of the term privacy is a legal headache.

WkgGrpPrivacy.pdf

While the Constitution has been held to provide a personal right of privacy, the nature and extent of the remedies derived from that guarantee are uncertain. An analysis of the constitutional jurisprudence demonstrates not merely an inherent, and we believe largely unavoidable, lack of clarity as to definition and the precise application of the general entitlement to privacy in particular circumstances, but the dimensions of the constitutional cause of action are also unclear in many other important respects, particularly in relation the considerations which the Courts will determine justify what might otherwise be considered an invasion of privacy. While it is likely that the Courts will, if and when called upon so to do, facilitate remedies for violations of privacy that are proportionate and effective, by definition they can only do this on a case by case basis.

Anyway, I'll be completely ignoring you from now on as you seem to be getting a little too personal.

blue5000 · 06-12-2021 10:02am

Mod note; Just going to park this one until the mod team have a chat about it. We all seem to be getting too deep into this. Hopefully we'll have it up and running again in 24 hours. PM me if you've anything further to add, just bear in mind I'm not a barrister, just a farmer.

greysides · 06-12-2021 9:43pm

Mod:

This is the first paragraph in the first post:

I am starting this thread to raise awareness of individuals who may take it upon themselves to map our properties in great detail on wiki style maps such as OpenStreetMap.org .

THAT is the purpose of this thread, awareness, and comment on the unrealised mapping of private property. The argument over the legalities of privacy are monopolising and detracting from the purpose of this thread. That is to stop now.

Thread reopened.

emaherx · 06-12-2021 10:06pm

I have intentionally posted this as a discussion in the farming section and not the legal advice forum, as I am not making any legal claims or seeking legal advice, I am just raising my concerns about the issue and sharing my contact experience with the organisation in question. As there is currently no intention to make an official complaint or take any legal action.

I have made contact with OpenStreetMap Ireland which claims to have its rules governed by the consensus of its community members, therefore I believe that we can convey some of our concerns directly to them. Questions like "why our building usage would need to be mapped" from us a community of online farmers to them a community of online mappers doesn't need to imply any breach of Data Protection laws, but is certainly a question that I have posed to them and that I believe they should ask themselves. If this is a question that they find they are unable to answer themselves, then it may help to persuade them that they really don't need any labels to identify farm building usage. Given that by their own admission their document in guiding their community members on the labelling of such structures is currently a work in progress now would probably a good time for people to politely make contact and voice their own concerns.

This is a direct quote from the last mail I have received from OpenStreetMap Ireland.

"But if there is a legitimate concern about the level of tagging it is a conversation we can have with the wider OpenStreetMap community in Ireland as well."

As an aside and in the interest of fairness, I'd like to reiterate that I don't generally have any issue with OpenStreetMap and I'd even commend them in work they have accomplished in projects such as https://www.townlands.ie/

Luttrell1975 · 07-12-2021 1:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118280306#Comment_118280306

Since the moderator has forbidden discussion of laws (no harm because I wasn't going to go through them all in this thread), and you are mentioning that GDPR does not arise (well done), then the entire narrative you construct where you ask a data controller to justify why they have the data is also gone. You already got responses which sound very reasonable. It is not yours or anyone's place to demand responses, or to target an email campaign at any organisation or individual, whether it is a commercial or volunteer based.

Last thing. Its a very bad idea to tell someone their knowledge is based on powerpoint they looked at one weekend. Seriously.

emaherx · 07-12-2021 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118281562#Comment_118281562

On this point, I will apologise, it was a cheap shot and beneath me. It is not nice to belittle the knowledge of others and makes for poor argument.

Last thing. Its a very bad idea to tell someone their knowledge is based on powerpoint they looked at one weekend. Seriously.

I have just raised some of our concerns with the organisation in question without implying any legal issue one way or the other. I have read their responses and sought further information, to which they have replied again and even said they'd consider the issue with their community if there is legitimate concern about the level of tagging. A few polite e-mails dose not constitute an attack, I find clairvoyance a poor method of conveying concern. There were no demands made anywhere within the mails I sent, only a point of view shared and I credit them with some of the answers. If it was a simple as question asked and answered there would be no such thing as discussion.

But seriously if you'd like to discuss the usefulness or not of tagging our buildings with a guessed usage purpose I'd love to hear it? A good answer in showing it is useful could help change our minds on the issue, conversely not having a useful purpose might persuade a community of mappers that it is not worth upsetting others just to label something because it is there, this has been my narrative since the very beginning of the thread and remains unchanged.

Luttrell1975 · 07-12-2021 2:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118283086#Comment_118283086

Thank you, I will leave the rest of the sentence neutral in that case, and you will fill in the blanks with what I am thanking you for.

When I said demands I was assuming a tone you might hold, rather than the absolute meaning for the content. For this I apologise, it wasn't the right word to use. But asking members of a message board to send their own mails to a volunteer organisation is ramping up what your outstanding concerns, when all you had to do was follow up and post your replies.

I will leave the thread to you to work out why this is a "legitimate" concern. I do not accept that marking details on a map causes crime, nor does it touch privacy. Not when every satellite image and commercial map available tells you exactly the same thing.

Easten · 07-12-2021 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284267#Comment_118284267

Very few contributors to this thread, as I pointed out earlier the Genie is already out of the lamp with regard to this type of stuff which covers a far wider subject area.

Listen I think you were correct when you said this is a probe to ad hominem. Worse than that most other threads can grow and cover many side topics, instead this one is locked to a personal crusade against Openstreetmap.

It's now yet another blocking sticky at the top of one of the few forms on Boards that is still active after the so called "upgrade".

greysides · 07-12-2021 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284545#Comment_118284545

I think I'll tackle a couple of the points here and then go and check out the Latin phrase, so with my mod hat on...

Sometimes it's fitting for threads to meander off-topic - non-serious threads, threads where the new direction is helpful, threads whose original purpose is complete and the diversion is of no consequence, etc.

By and large here, we don't go too struck on keeping threads on-topic as befits a small community that, I wager, is more tight-knit than most of the others on Boards.

The view of the moderators in this instance is that most farmers would be unaware of mapping and therefore labelling of their property could be happening without their consent. Secondly, we can see the obvious security and privacy concerns it throws up and wish to give a heads-up to those we can.

That brings me to the second point. It was me that stickied the thread for the reasons above. I was not asked to do it. I moved another stickied thread elsewhere to make space so the number of stickied threads hasn't increased. In time, the thread will cut loose.

Luttrell1975 · 07-12-2021 4:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284861#Comment_118284861

😄 just to point out this - this is the second thread devoted to emaherx's take on the issue. There could have been just one. Despite many posts suggesting there are legal issues (which are not off-topic as they refer to the issue), this aspect got shut down and only you know the reason for that.

Easten · 07-12-2021 4:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118284861#Comment_118284861

Farmers know more about mapping then the general public. You can be sure that ever farmer knows with accuracy the map of their farm. Farmers are working with maps with over 3 decades now. Very naïve and small minded of Moderators to convey a picture of ignorant farmers like that.

Now we have a Moderator reintroducing the concept of consent to mapping, and also the issue of privacy. As was said earlier there is no legal requirement to have consent. The question of privacy was also challenged from a legal point of view, the Op chose not to discuss as he did not see it as relevant or should be part of the discussion.

What you are doing now greysides is spreading misinformation.

OpenStreetMap Unnecessary Public Listing of our Farm Buildings / Features

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