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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,618 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    Show me concrete examples of this happening, and I mean concrete. Not some ramblings of a Twitter mob. An actual, government policy or proposal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,618 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    I read the last dozen pages and I'm not going to subject myself to any more ramblings. This stuff is more fit for the conspiracy theory forum.

    There's about 4 pages of rambling about fossil vs hydrogen which is obviously not the way forward for personal transport if you ever looked at the amount of work actual companies (not researchers or think-tanks) are doing with it now.

    It's all electric, it's all batteries, get over it, deal with it.

    I haven't gotten to the "meat is a sin" part and frankly I don't want to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,080 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    It isn't all batteries. Batteries are 8 times more expensive than they would need to be to leverage renewables to even match nuclear energy. By 2050 they will have dropped to only three times too expensive.

    That is why you see so much talk of hydrogen, together with the fact you can not get around the need for liquid fuels in transport as the energy density of batteries simply won't cut it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    $500 trillion subsidies paid to fossil fuel industry in 2019



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭celtic_oz


    A net-zero future is possible, but first we need to flip a mental switch to truly understand that we can stop the climate crisis if we try, says Nobel laureate Al Gore. In this inspiring and essential talk, Gore shares examples of extreme climate events (think: fires, floods and atmospheric tsunamis), identifies the man-made systems holding us back from progress and invites us all to join the movement for climate justice: "the biggest emergent social movement in all of history," as he puts it. An unmissable tour de force on the current state of the crisis -- and the transformations that will make it possible to find a way out of it.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1



    You mean fossil fuel companies like Bord Na Mona



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Definition of newspeak

    : propagandistic language marked by euphemism, circumlocution, and the inversion of customary meanings


    As I've said previously in climate newspeak NOT taxing fuel is reported as a subsidy, there is NO transfer of money from the taxpayer to the airline to buy aviation fuel. This same corruption in the meanings of words as commonly understood by the public is also applied to farmers use of "green diesel" and fixing potholes (see underlined) is counted as subsidies to oil refiners.

    Broader externalities associated with the use of road fuels in vehicles, such as traffic congestion and accidents (most important) and road damage (less important). Although motorists may take into account (“internalize”) some of these costs in their driving decisions (for example, the average amount of congestion on the road, the risk of injuring themselves in single-vehicle collisions), they do not take into account other costs such as their own contribution to congestion and slower travel speeds, injury risks to pedestrians and cyclists and occupants of other vehicles, and the burden on third parties of property damage and medical costs (van Bentham 2015).


    source


    Be under no illusion climate change has nothing to do with the weather, it is entirely a political and religious movement. Doubt me, then consider the use of the word denier and consensus, these are not scientific terms they are a hallmark of intolerant religion. Further go and ask the public that agrees to explain to you the physics of climate change and what the bounds of these physics are, they won't know. All you are going to get from most people is mutterings about carbon and plastic waste, but no science. Scientists don't even know or agree what the sensitivity value is after all these decades. When you start digging into the physics and chemistry, you will find many superficial illustrations which attempt to explain, keep digging they are very unsatisfactory explanations, you will soon find out there is an incredible amount of junk science out there that you must wade through. You will learn to spot these, most are based on assumptions and computer models that bear no relation to real world observations, however they are great for generating cheap hysterical tabloid headlines. You will eventually find that root of the fashionable science is based on the conjectures of 19th century scientists. Specifically these two papers:

    On the Influence of Carbonic Acid in the Air upon the Temperature of the Ground

    On the variations of the climate and historical past and their causes.


    This is the conjecture behind the fashionable* science.

    A. Trace gases such as C02 and water vapour trap radiant heat in the atmosphere analogous to the heat trapping by glass greenhouses;


    B. Water vapour exerts a positive feedback that amplifies the warming effect of C02;


    C. C02 is the main driver of climate at any time scale including during the Ice Ages;


    D. An increased opacity of the atmosphere to infra-red long-wave radiation would warm the Earth's surface by raising the effective radiating altitude of the planet, thus allowing the temperature lapse rate to be applied over a longer distance.


    That conjecture is summed up in this diagram. (If you want to know what they are saying in English (6 minutes))

    Untitled Image


    They you ask how is this measured and where can you find these measurements. . . . and does this match with observed reality? I certainly have not found them yet.

    * Eugenics, was a fashionable "science" widely adopted by governments around the world as a basis for social policy, with horrifying results. There are several other examples of fashionable science over the decades or millennia. Eventually this fall out of fashion as well.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    Not with the state of our current technology. Reality is ever present, Green utopia is not. The EU nations are starting to climb down in the face of the self inflicted energy crisis, in order not to scare off the banks from investing in gas and nuclear they are having to back pedal.

    EU reassessing role of natural gas in green finance rules, Commission says

    EU prepares to include nuclear and gas in green investment list


    Untitled Image


    1. The pre-problem stage
    2. Alarmed discovery and euphoric enthusiasm
    3. Realising the cost of significant progress
    4. Gradual decline of intense public interest
    5. The post-problem stage


    In Ireland we are at stage 3 of Anthony Downs issue-attention-cycle. We see it in the Irish Times survey?

    Untitled Image


    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I see 8 bullet points there - and all 8 are fabricated stances of your own concoction.

    Taking bullet point one for instance. Absolutely zero people, nobody, not one contributor on this thread has even hinted at 'forcing people to move to cities.' You're talking absolute 100%, verifiable nonsense on that point. You had various posters actually posting at length in a thoughtful manner at making more viable rural communities and villages. But that doesn't suit you, so you make up a stance that verifiably nobody has made.

    And that's just point 1. And I'm not even a 'Green'.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Nobody has suggested forcing anyone to live in cities. You made it up. And that's just bullet point one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1


    The quarterly stipend from big oil must be due is it ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Yet again Mr. Koch left me off his Christmas list 😥, I'll try better next year.

    Since you are concerned about following the money have you heard about GFANZ?

    The Real Threat to Banks Isn't From Climate Change. It's From Bankers.

    And former Bank of England chief, Mark Carney, co-chair of the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero, has organized $130 trillion in investment and said recently that his investors should expect to make higher, not lower, returns than the market. How? In the exact same way Omarova predicted: by bankrupting some companies, and financing other ones, through government regulations and subsidies.


    Carney created the Glasgow Financial Alliance, or GFANZ, with Michael Bloomberg, and they did so under the official seal of the United Nations. “Carney said the alliance will put global finance on a trajectory that ultimately leaves high-carbon assets facing a much bleaker future,” wrote a reporter with Bloomberg. “He also said investors in such products will see the value of their holdings sink.”


    What’s going on, exactly? How is it that some of the world’s most powerful bankers, and the politicians they finance, came to support policies that threaten the stability of electrical grids, energy supplies, and thus the global economy itself?

    It seem they put their money where the legislation they bought guarantees a return sufficient to fund their lifestyle.

    Three of the largest donors to climate change causes are billionaire financial titans Michael Bloomberg, George Soros, and Tom Steyer, all of whom have significant investments in both renewables and fossil fuels.

    and what do they do with that?

    Bloomberg gave over $100 million to Sierra Club to lobby to shut down coal plants after he had taken a large stake in its replacement, natural gas, and operates one of the largest news media companies in the world, which publishes articles and sends emails nearly every day reporting that climate change threatens the economy, and that solar panels and wind turbines are the only cost-effective solution.


    Soros donates heavily to Center for American Progress, whose founder, John Podesta, was chief of staff to Bill Clinton, campaign chairman for Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, and who currently runs policy at the Biden White House. So too does Steyer, who funds the climate activist organization founded by New Yorker author Bill McKibben, 350.org, which reported revenues of nearly $20 million in 2018.

    It goes further, ENRON even

    The most influential environmental organization among Democrats and the Biden Administration is the Natural Resources Defense Council, NRDC, which advocated for federal control of state energy markets, the $500 billion for electric cars and renewables, and international carbon markets that would be controlled by the bankers and financiers who also donate to it.


    In the 1990s, NRDC helped energy trading company Enron to distribute hundreds of thousands of dollars to environmental groups. “On environmental stewardship, our experience is that you can trust Enron,” said NRDC’s Ralph Cavanagh in 1997, even though Enron executives at the time were defrauding investors of billions of dollars in an epic criminal conspiracy, which in 2001 bankrupted the company.


    <snip>

    Former NRDC head, Gina McCarthy, now heads up Biden’s climate policy team, and Biden’s top economic advisor, Brian Deese, last worked at BlackRock, and almost certainly will return at the end of the Biden Administration.


    Surely Extinction Rebellion are not tainted by big money . . . yes they are.


    Extinction Rebellion Doubles Down On Blowing Up Pipelines Threat

    A 2019 New York Times story from reported:


    “Climate change protesters from Extinction Rebellion snarled traffic in Washington on Monday and again on Friday. You might find yourself asking, ‘Who helps pays for this activism?’ The answer, in part, is the scions of some of America’s most famous families, including the Kennedys and the Gettys.”


    That would be referring to Rory Kennedy (daughter of former U.S. Senator Robert F. Kennedy) and Aileen Getty (a granddaughter of former U.S. oil businessman Jean Paul Getty), who started the Climate Emergency Fund which has given hundreds of thousands of dollars to Extinction Rebellion. Getty’s foundation even touts its support for Extinction Rebellion.


    <snip>


    And in the United Kingdom, Extinction Rebellion receives support from hedge fund manager Sir Chris Hohn. Earlier this year, The Guardian reported that Hohn “paid himself just shy of £1m-a-day last year,” and is using his wealth to support the group:“ Instead, he has pumped money into Extinction Rebellion (XR), the ‘respectful disruption’ campaign that has staged high-profile sit-in protests around the world. When Hohn was revealed as XR’s single biggest donor, he said: ‘Humanity is aggressively destroying the world with climate change and there is an urgent need for us all to wake up to this fact.’”


    Hohn is also the founder of the Children’s Investment Fund Foundation, which spends heavily on climate activism.


    Sir Chris Hohn appears to be current UK chancellor of the exchequer Rishi Sunak’s former boss.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,595 ✭✭✭Mr. teddywinkles


    To be fair iv glanced at this thread now and again. And some egits have unbelievably suggest this at points along it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'd like to see that quoted where someone in this thread advocated forcing people to live in cities.

    I call shenanigans, it didn't happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Zero posters in this thread have suggested forcing people to live in cities. I know it's unparliamentary, but you're lying.

    Give us the post number, or quote it. Or else just concede you made it up.

    And that's just bullet point one. Shall we move on to the claim that people have posted destroying the national herd? What poster advocated destroying the national herd? Name names (or post number), alternatively, admit you're making it up.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    About a hundred estate houses in Letterkenny, council estate in Kilmacrennan, bunch of high end houses outside Ramelton, most would have been built by developers linked to a current government party, Niall Blaney destroyed what was left of his career spouting the same crap a few months ago,



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    To be fair, your posts have been so extreme anti rural living it’s prompted me as well to ask whether you want all non-farm rural property gotten rid off



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    I'm pro-rural, and in particular pro rural communities. You're under the misapprehension that blighting every hillside and boreen with one-offs is actually good for community and the economy of rural Ireland. The reality is it's the exact opposite and has directly contributed to the decline of rural communities.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,878 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Correct,

    the creation of viable villages rather than dispersed rural living is key to rural sustainability.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭buried


    What's your definition of a 'viable village'? I mean there are plenty of these already, and 'viable towns' to go with them. The ultimate problem is a total lack of infrastructure and services based in these areas. That has little or nothing to do with one off housing.

    Bullet The Blue Shirts



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    Wrong.

    Villages and small towns are dying a death because people don't shop there anymore, all off to the major towns where you have the big Tescos/ Dunnes and Aldi/Lidl stores. all the buy in the village is a few litres of milk during the week. So putting more people in villages won't make a bit of difference.

    Great to see the city folk knowing what's best for the country as usual.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Q. How do you have a reliable bus service to a hollowed-out village with an archipelago of car-reliant one-offs in the hinterland?

    A: You can't

    Q: How do An Post sustain a post office in a hollowed-out village with an archipelago of one-offs in the hinterland where the cost of delivering a letter is 5-6 times that of an urban area?

    A: You can't

    Q: How do you install fiber-optic broadband to every house on every hillside because it has been lobbied for as 'a right'

    A: At eye-watering expense and paid for by the public dime, cross-subsidised by more economically resilient and viable parts of the country.

    Q: How are village businesses to survive when car-reliant consumers living 5km into the hinterland of the village hop in their car and head for Lidl elsewhere because there's no more footfall in the hollowed out community?

    A: They generally don't

    The lack of infrastructure is everything to do with the one off archipeligo development pattern because it's eye wateringly expensive to bring the 21st century and ancillary services to your door when you want to live in splendid isolation away from an actual community that you ignore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭buried


    Your talking there as if these people are living 40,000 miles from anywhere Yurt. They aren't. Ireland is a small island and any service you just outlined there can be easily done and in a lot of the cases you just outlined, it already is being done, mainly by private companies, especially in the travel and broadband services/sectors.

    What isn't being provided to rural communities, with these new fandangled notions of 'viable villages' and 'viable towns' are the PUBLIC SERVICES that government is supposed to provide to communities everywhere. You and Blanch there want 'viable villages'? Bit rich when the current gang in power closed down A&E departments and Garda stations in already 'viable towns' and 'viable villages', so what is going to be done to address that glaring problem, seeing you want the best for rural Ireland, yes?

    Bullet The Blue Shirts



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Example: The national broadband scheme is a fiscal disaster. Warnings were in reports that it could not be achieved on budget and they didn't have the capacity to meet the provision as outlined (explicitly due to rural Irish settlement patterns), and so it transpired with all but one tendering companty dropping out and the government picking up the tab to make to difference. Central government coffers and other taxpayers bent over backwards for one off Arcadia on that front so you could enjoy a Netflix subscription.

    You say they're not living a millon miles away from civilisation. The economics of the matter and the fiscal burden proves this sentiment to be moot and part of a delusion.

    Ever wonder why A&E department may be closing down in towns suffering from depopulation?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭buried


    I don't watch Netflix actually and my fibre broadband works just fine, just like my in-laws who also live out in a far worse 'deserted hinterland archipelago' than I do. We use it for our business and information and it works just fine. You want to talk about fiscal disasters? Well plenty of elements fall into that category, National Children's Hospitals and all that noise.

    What towns are you talking about that are suffering from depopulation? Roscommon A&E was closed while that town's population and other infrastructure was increasing. I mean, you and Blanch there are on about getting one off housing stopped, yeah? Wouldn't a good way to get your dastardly One Off Housing scenarios reduced or even stopped by keeping things such as A&E's and Garda stations in 'Viable Villages & Towns' open and functioning? How else are you going to attract people into these "viable' areas in the first place?

    Bullet The Blue Shirts



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    On Garda stations:

    It seems there is method to The Gardai's madness.

    Crime actually fell, and fell at a greater degree in districts that experienced station closures.

    The rationale is a simple one. In NI for instance, they have a ridiculously small amount of large "super-stations" (I think it's a dozen or so across the territory) for a province that has a not too dissimilar settlement pattern.

    The reason: Bobbies are in their vehicle constantly covering timetabled patrol routes instead of sitting in their small station eating a snackbox watching Winning Streak.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    On A&E and particularly specialised trauma units. People need to reconcile themselves with this fact: these are highly specialised and very expensive services to maintain.

    Not every provincial town can have one and expect 21st century critical care in aggregate across the country.

    That's unfortunate for those in very very peripheral areas (hello one off housing again) but there is a genuine system need to centralise these very expensive services to maintain quality across the HSE.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭buried


    What has NI or any other existing jurisdiction got to do with it? We are talking about here, and our sustainable future, and you want viable villages and towns to go with it, but at the same time you want people to move into these semi-rural areas with no viable essential Public service infrastructure to go with it. That is not going to happen anywhere unless those essential needs are met first, and it has nothing to do with current trends of one off housing. If anything, the lack of these services in semi/urban/rural areas are enabling the problem of One Off Housing that is such a bone of contention for you.

    Bullet The Blue Shirts



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭buried


    But don't you want people to get out of the countryside and move into these provincial rural towns and villages? How are you going to convince them when the essential services are not there?

    Bullet The Blue Shirts



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