United Ireland Poll - please vote

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 3:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245309#Comment_118245309

No, that's not what I said, in fact, it is the opposite of what I have said. The SDLP do want to change things. Here is another academic perspective:

http://qpol.qub.ac.uk/integrated-education-policy-where-is-the-political-will/

"Ultimately, segregated education maintains education systems for both sides of the community meaning their identities are protected. For the DUP and Sinn Fein, this suits their main aim of protecting their own political and national identities as both believe that an integrated education system would erode this. Out of fear, which is something that unites both parties, our education system remains segregated."

"To summarize the parties, the Alliance party is clearly the most supportive of integrated education, followed by the UUP as seen by both parties developing significant policies on the concept in their manifestos. The SDLP remains somewhere in the middle on this policy, with a change in policy for supporting integrated education in 2016 but are not very vocal in their support for it when implementing manifesto pledges. The DUP hasn’t changed their policy substantially, but have moved to support shared education and some high ranking party members have spoken out in favour of implementing integrated education. Sinn Fein ranks at the bottom with no significant policy support for integrated education and their actions when holding the Education ministry failed on encouraging integrated education."

You know, that article pretty much agrees with everything I have posted on the issue. Sinn Fein's fear, as manifesting itself in the panicked responses to my consistent posting, is concentrating on the look over there defensive position.

BluePlanet · 30-11-2021 3:43pm

From one of the linked articles:

What depresses Fitzsimmons most is that this issue was recognised by Northern Ireland’s first Education Minister Lord Londonderry at the inception of the state – his Education Act which envisaged a single system for all was wrecked by an alliance of Catholic and Protestant churches who were appalled at the prospect.

It's not really SF or DUP that are actively obstructing integrated education. It's the churches. The political parties will migrate their positions toward the votes, so if people cast their ballots to parties that make integrated education a central plank, then that's what will happen.

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 3:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245616#Comment_118245616

Eh, that reference was to 100 years ago. Still wallowing in the injustices of 100 years ago, and using them to justify sectarian practices today. Sorry, don't buy that.

The second part of your post shows SF and the DUP to be populist followers of the loudest people, not something I disagree with, but I expect more from my politicians.

BluePlanet · 30-11-2021 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245649#Comment_118245649

Have you considered, that SF just don't have a strong policy on integrated education because it's not something people are concerned about on doorsteps? Imo belly aching about SF and 'integrated education' is essentially a middle class masturbatory exercise.

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 4:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245757#Comment_118245757

It's not that they don't have a strong policy on it, they do. They actively oppose it, as does the DUP.

BluePlanet · 30-11-2021 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245771#Comment_118245771

I disagree. But it doesn't matter if you think that way. It's up to people to give their expression at the ballot box and currently they are largely voting for SF and the DUP. If people felt strongly about integrated education and voted that way, then i'd expect the parties to modify their positions.

BluePlanet · 30-11-2021 4:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245771#Comment_118245771

Out of curiosity i searched out Sinn Fein's position on integrated education.

Copy and paste below from https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/16324

In a nutshell, they support it! The problem they have is about curriculum. They are correct that such would be defined by Britain to the exclusion of an Irish pov.

Integrated Education

As we said earlier, Sinn Féin believes in secular education and in multi-denominational schools. However, we be-lieve it would be mistaken to confuse these norms with how the British government handles integrated education in the Six Counties. We have no quarrel whatever with those parents who choose to send their children to these schools, nor with those teachers who teach in them. They do so for the best of reasons. We can see some advan-tages and we are in favour of their being there as an option for parents.

We would like to see the same resources now being given to integrated schools also being given to Irish language-medium schools.

Central to any discussion of integrated education in Ire-land, and indeed of education generally, is the issue of the curriculum: the assumptions underlying it, who controls it and its goals. A shared curriculum must acknowledge our common Irishness and celebrate the diversity which enriches us all.

The past absence of Irish history teaching and the ban-ning and neglect of the Irish language in the school cur-riculum has been at least as responsible for contributing to the problems of society in the North as the absence of integrated education. One of the reasons for the support for the Catholic Maintained Sector in nationalist areas is the fact that, historically, the authorities in the North tried to turn education into a weapon which reinforces the 'Britishness' of the State.

The right-wing educational ethos of the British authorities, which is based on elitism and privilege, is anathema to the vast majority of teachers on this island, North and South.

Would it not make sense to integrate the two state-systems of education on this island, as part of the process of bringing about true integration?

Brucie Bonus · 30-11-2021 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244010#Comment_118244010

If you go live in France, as an Irish person, your identity is not being suppressed.

If that's a genuine concern, you must be equally livid for the Irish who did nothing but be on the wrong side of a partition they didn't ask for. Thats the undemocratic bully boy elephant in the room.

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245939#Comment_118245939

A document from 1995!!!!!

Come on, you can do better than that, if they really truly support it, and when every academic study says they don't. Show us something that they have done since their pious words in a submission to a forum in 1995.

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246130#Comment_118246130

And yes, if you live in Northern Ireland, as an Irish person, your identity is not being suppressed either.

Brucie Bonus · 30-11-2021 5:12pm

Being Irish means our nationality is never a burden. It’s the opposite. It lifts us up, it provides a sense of belonging and, in the darkest of times, it gives us a feeling of hope. To me being Irish simply means that you are someone who calls Ireland “home”.

Well said.

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 5:13pm

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-57761935

Here we go again, the Alliance Party calling out, with facts and evidence, the misguided opposition of Sinn Fein to integrated education.

If Paisley hadn't come up with the phrase, "Not an inch", Sinn Fein would be making it their own.

BluePlanet · 30-11-2021 5:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246194#Comment_118246194

I can only assume that the party position is unchanged. If their support for integrated education had changed they'd likely pull that document.

Brucie Bonus · 30-11-2021 5:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246194#Comment_118246194

Do you think policy has a 'best before' date?

FrancieBrady · 30-11-2021 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246198#Comment_118246198

We're getting close to your sit around peacefully until Unionists and the British get around to giving you your full rights, equality and parity of esteem.

BluePlanet · 30-11-2021 5:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246217#Comment_118246217

I dunno Blanch but i just don't see that facts and evidence you allege.

The article you linked contains a statement from the former SF Education Minister John O'Dowd "Mr O'Dowd said there was little provision in the sector for the Irish language or Gaelic games", which mirrors the concerns SF expressed in that 1995 document.

Followed by personal anecdotes from Alliance Party Kellie Armstrong "In terms of promoting the Irish language and Gaelic games, Ms Armstrong, her party's integrated schools spokesperson, said: "Integrated schools already do this.".

Anecdotes are not really evidence. SF John O'Dowd had commissioned a review of the integrated education by the Department and it said:

-There are currently 65 integrated schools in Northern Ireland, attended by 6.9% of pupils.

-The first, Lagan College, opened in Belfast in 1981.

-Forty-one per cent of integrated school pupils are from a Protestant background and 36% are from a Catholic background.

-However, the report reveals that 32 integrated schools have fewer than 30% of pupils drawn from the minority community in their area.

-Four of those have fewer than 10% of pupils from the minority community.

He also found that there was 1 school that offered the Irish language.

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246347#Comment_118246347

However, the report reveals that 32 integrated schools have fewer than 30% of pupils drawn from the minority community in their area.

And this is a criticism, how? Mathematically, less than 50% of the pupils will be from the minority community, many of the minority communities will be a lot less than 50%, so surely having fewer than 30% of pupils drawn from the minority community can only be a criticism where you have established that the minority community is more than 30%!!!!

It is there in black and white. Sinn Fein have paid lip service to integrated education but their actions show they oppose it, the academic analysis shows they oppose it.

One person can pull out a policy from 1995 and another can claim that it is still current. If I recall correctly, around that time Sinn Fein policy also thought that killing people was ok, kneecapping them was part of normal business, and there was no problem moving sex abusers to another jurisdiction and giving them a job. Are all those policies current, too?

Anyone trying to claim Sinn Fein favour integrated education is flogging a dead horse, and would be better off quietly changing the subject rather than further embarrassing themselves.

FrancieBrady · 30-11-2021 6:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246401#Comment_118246401

Every single 'academic study' will tell you what the core problem is and why the education 'system' reflects to core issues.

This study is nearer to the truth of why it is how it is and look blanch...it doesn't feel the need to mention the Shinners as the boogeymen and women!

As is usually the case the situation is a lot more complex than one of your frivolous political point scoring jaunts.

Such hostility can only be explained by tracing the historical origins of the Northern Irish educational system. This approach allows us to go beyond the internal polarisation of society to consider external factors, such as the influence of the English system, which contributed greatly to the peculiarities of Irish education. Whereas in the rest of Europe the state became the only national institution capable of maintaining an efficient educational infrastructure, in England the churches long retained power within a fragmented system. The historical reluctance of the British government to intervene in education helps explain the difficulty encountered by the unionist government. Although by prioritising the requests of the churches the government finally accorded preferential treatment to the Protestant community at the expense of the Catholic one, its plans initially contrasted with those of its supporters. As Londonderry’s reform tried to impose state control, the Protestant churches complained and later negotiated, while the Catholic Church simply rejected any interference in education. The three parties had different interests. In the end, the government not only overlooked nationalist requests, but also ignored bodies, such as teachers’ unions, whose demands did not merely reflect their religious affiliation, thus reiterating its commitment to denominational education.

Full article: Reforming education in post-partition Northern Ireland: state control and churches’ interference (tandfonline.com)

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246589#Comment_118246589

So you are falling back on a 1920s historian to justify Sinn Fein opposition to educational integration in 2021. Oh dear, oh dear, if this wasn't such a sad issue, that post would have me creasing up with laughter for days. Stop living in the past, Francie. Stop dreaming the dreams of yesterday's men (and yes, they were men not women with those dreams).

Time to face up to the challenge of what can be done today.

FrancieBrady · 30-11-2021 7:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246749#Comment_118246749

Are you ever going to move beyond the kneeerk 'the shinners are responsible for everything'?

The situation regarding education is complex and has long roots...see above. Also see below, the Shinners do NOT oppose integrated education.

In the case of Sinn Féin – and as highlighted above – the party has had an almost indifferent approach to integrated education and does not explicitly refer critically to integrated education along the lines of the DUP but argues for parental choice, whilst maintaining that the integrated sector should be properly resourced (Sinn Féin, 2007). Since then, Sinn Féin has focused on issues such as academic selection and continued its argument for retaining parental choice alongside vigorous support for Irish Medium education and a more cautious and implicit support for integrated education (see the Local Government Manifesto 2014 and Assembly Election Manifesto 2016 (Sinn Féin, 2014, 2016)). While the DUP could be perceived as defender of the Controlled Sector, Sinn Féin has expressed support for the Maintained and Irish Medium sectors as well as parental choice, and Sinn Féin has also focused extensively on ending academic selection at age 11. The Sinn Féin politician, Martin McGuinness, as Minister for Education, also moved to address some parents’ fears that his party favoured the ultimate integration of all Catholic and Protestant schools and referred to being in favour of choice: ‘If people want to educate their children through the medium of Catholic education or Protestant education or integrated schools, I believe that they have the right to do that’ (BBC, 1999).

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 10:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246898#Comment_118246898

Right at the end of your quotation, McGuinness defends the right of sectarians to send their children to sectarian based schools. If the North is ever to move on, sectarian-based education needs to end.

landofthetree · 30-11-2021 10:14pm

Its pretty simple for United Irelanders.

Go out and get 50% of the vote in the assembly elections in March.

Then a poll will happen. Otherwise you just have to live with it.

FrancieBrady · 30-11-2021 10:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247929#Comment_118247929

Now you are getting sinister.

McGuinness defends 'choice' blanch. The same choice parents have here and everywhere there are religious schools.

Branding parents (not to mention teachers and school managements) now, as 'sectarian' because they choose a religious school is deeply deeply sinister.

The 'right of sectarians'...lordy lordy.

Are you going to withdraw 'SF are against integrated education'? Or is that lie going to stand?

blanch152 · 30-11-2021 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247968#Comment_118247968

Think McGuinness is back in the good old days of the Deep South when good white parents could send their good white children to good white schools by choice. That is the sort of choice that Sinn Fein are seeking to preserve.

FrancieBrady · 30-11-2021 10:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247992#Comment_118247992

So what's the plan then blanch...frogmarch parents and children into schools they don't want to go to?

Guess what that reminds me off?

Are you going to withdraw, 'SF are against integrated education' or are you going to let that lie stand?

BluePlanet · 30-11-2021 10:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118247956#Comment_118247956

A UI poll can only happen if the British Secretary of State for NI decides to hold one. The numbers in the NI Assembly don't come into it. Personally i'd like to wait 5 years or so before one, and would also like to see more public opinion sampling that shows a favourable result.

Having said that it will take at minimum a change of government in the UK and probably some external pressure. The British don't leave colonies very willingly.

starkid · 01-12-2021 9:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244366#Comment_118244366

again i can't seriously reply to that if you're going to ignore the polls and research done. google any article on the issue and you will find hundreds of people arguing the cold dead hands line. you can dress that up as a strawman or anecdotal. but its clearly not. there's a real possibility it will cause huge splits. SF, irish parties and the country itself. hopefully we are mature enough to deal with it.

everything is a strawman if you set it up that way. Clearly division in a United ireland is real live possibility. to ignore that, is well just plain ignorant. So i'm not sure how its strawman. i'm not refuting anything. i'm setting out a clear line of what is at this stage nearly inevitable. again to throw back your you can only have an opinion if you live in said place, i live in the southern nationalist enclave of Ballybough. a straw poll of most residents here would probably be majority against compromise, they wouldprobably look at you with two heads if you talked about removing flags, anthems etc.

who is talking about a veto? the realpolitik of it is violence, division, hatred and whole towns outside of influence. What Unionism did to the nationalist population was awful and deep down i think many irish people are angry about it. myself included. and there will always be a part of people saying take your commumpance. but i recognise its hugely complex.

You seem level headed about it all. that's great. hopefully there's many more like yourself. But as i said i know people from non nationalist backgrounds who would be against losing flags and anthems etc.

as for the eire nua document, i'm well aware of it. and who saids this debate has to be anything refreshed. its going to be a constant battle to push it.

but eire nua is a case in point. it split the party. the exact same thing will happen in any United Ireland debate. its inevitable. people who deny these issues are living in cloud cuckoo land.

BluePlanet · 01-12-2021 10:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249349#Comment_118249349

No the Eire Nua document didn't split the party. It was the decision to abandon abstentionism in RoI and NI that did it.

Additionally starkid, tough talk on the internet is easy. But actually committing oneself to engage a campaign of violence even within a low-level conflict, is a life long commitment that very very few will make. With no safe haven border to nip across and work from, Loyalists lack the necessary ingredients for a sustained campaign. When you consider that their violence during the troubles was largely directed, supported and assisted by British intelligence services, which won't exist after a UI referendum, they haven't a hope. It's called a bluff, and it will get louder the closer to a poll we get.

blanch152 · 01-12-2021 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249427#Comment_118249427

So, because they can't and won't get violent, we should ignore their opinion. Got it, pretty much the byword for exclusionary nationalism.

blanch152 · 01-12-2021 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118248012#Comment_118248012

It isn't a lie, Francie. They are against integrated education and I have presented the evidence.

BluePlanet · 01-12-2021 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249506#Comment_118249506

Their opinion counts as strong as their numbers blanch. That's usually the way democracy works.

Tell us blanch, in your opinion, should Loyalists get special representation in the context of a UI? I mean in excess of their numbers. Does threatening violence mean you get more seats or get a veto?

starkid · 01-12-2021 10:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249427#Comment_118249427

eh yeah it did. Republican Sf was set up as a result.

i already said they won't wage a terror campaign. it could be in other forms. How do people really envision say AGS rocking up in Bangor, for instance? many people haven't thought this through at all. You can google the designated no go areas for French police for an example of other types of non co-operation and the effect they have on communities. i mean obviously you can use NI as an example itself in the bogside or whatnot. but in a normal country like France, police are told not to go to certain areas. And yeah its religious, but its also an identity issue. Similar to NI. thats the future of a UI in my opinion. The odd rogue bomb threat as well i'd envision. Nobody thought a Michael Stone could exist, but he did. there's always one. They will be losing their identity. some hardliners will be a dangerous foe.

A united Ireland will be decades of issues and upheavel and costs, and referendums, and divisions. Hence why its not happening any time soon. We need the old hardline guard gone from both sides and we need the moderates and centre to really form and begin real debates.

BluePlanet · 01-12-2021 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249601#Comment_118249601

The "AGS" you refer to in Bangor (lots of assumptions there) would be the very same police personnel that service that area currently.

starkid · 01-12-2021 11:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249548#Comment_118249548

so its a pure numbers exercise? wow that'll work.

as we see with Brexit, democracy by numbers doesn't always work , no.

They shouldn't have a veto. But i think its fairly simple what could happen. A seperate police entiy. A new flag. Two anthems/new anthem. Dual capitals. Dual celebrations. Symbolic allowance of Union jack in certain communities. Recognition of unionist history. Allowing self identity as British, just like nationalists today. A federal system for NI just like many countries have for their breakaway provinces like in Italy, Spain, France and many more.

starkid · 01-12-2021 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249655#Comment_118249655

82.5 per cent of the population of Bangor is protestant. Now yeah out of that 82 per cent how many are hardline. could be zero, could be 80. i don't know. but its naive to think the day a UI comes the gardai just switch with PSNI.

how are the AGS the same as the PSNI btw?

blanch152 · 01-12-2021 11:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249548#Comment_118249548

That's what I mean by exclusionary nationalism, the 50% plus one approach, rather than the inclusive unite the people approach of the GFA.

FrancieBrady · 01-12-2021 11:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249508#Comment_118249508

No you haven't. You have though presented, more than adequately your jaundiced views, which are the actual 'exclusionary' ones.

01-12-2021 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249601#Comment_118249601

There are no 'no go areas' for French police. Don't believe all the propaganda.

01-12-2021 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249655#Comment_118249655

Are you suggesting that the PSNI, would disband and everyone.would join AGS?

FrancieBrady · 01-12-2021 11:05am

So a defacto new version of partition. Excellent! 😁

starkid · 01-12-2021 11:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249679#Comment_118249679

exactly its so daft. i can't actually get my head around how people can be so naive to think its this simple. they've literally got two test cases in divison in the US and UK. was it Pluto who had a criticism of pure democracy. The ship of state. the captains in this instance are the moderates. we need these people to emerge.

we have a poster saying the AGS is the same as the PSNI. mind boggling

BluePlanet · 01-12-2021 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249666#Comment_118249666

Personally I don't see a problem with pretty much any of that.

Though i have my doubts a federal system for NI with dual Capitols would be sustainable, as it locks in duplication and then inefficiencies.

starkid · 01-12-2021 11:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249688#Comment_118249688

French police unions disagree with you there. https://www.france24.com/en/20201013-policing-without-consent-why-french-police-are-ill-equipped-to-reconquer-paris-suburbs

again people missing the point. its going to be similar in any UI. constant battles like this.

01-12-2021 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249711#Comment_118249711

Policing without consent does not equal a 'no go area'

Police in many areas of many countries 'police without consent ' that's the job.

And it has been like that in NI, forever.

starkid · 01-12-2021 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249703#Comment_118249703

ok cool, yeah thats what we need. i'm not a Republican really but a United Ireland could be a brilliant nation. you can see it in sport.

And yeah a United Ireland will basically be mini partionism. Whatever is the most hardline unionist town in NI right now. picture yourself there in a United Ireland. will much have changed?

starkid · 01-12-2021 11:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249724#Comment_118249724

ok sure, France doesn't have no go areas. the police unions are mistaken. and long before identity politics and fox hijacked these debates, the sensitive zones existed in French policy. its now not cool to mention it, i get it. you'll be accused of islamaphobia. but again your missing the point. some of these areas like the areas PSNI dont go to will be the issue in a UI. i mean it was a reply to somebody who spoke of terror campaigns when the issue of violence is brought up. it doesn't have to be a big campaign. it could be civil unrest and non coperation with bodies deemed as Republican.

and yet in Ireland we have policing by consent basically hardwired into our police.

and yeah i know its been like that. thats why i'm saying in my other posts, its obvious roles will be reversed in some areas, and in others the same issues will exist regardless of the name of police, in the poorest communities regardless of sides.

FrancieBrady · 01-12-2021 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249696#Comment_118249696

Who do you see 'emerging' politically to fight your case if a border poll is announced?

Who politically will advocate for a 'super majority'? Or for a de-facto re-partitioning?

BluePlanet · 01-12-2021 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249694#Comment_118249694

I honestly have no idea what would happen after a UI referedum in regards policing. I only have my own preferences, that and draw lessons from other times when there's been a hand-over from a major change. I advocate that both the PSNI and AGS disband and the members roll over into a new PSoI, probably modelled more like the PSNI, with civilian oversight, an ombudsman with teeth.

starkid · 01-12-2021 11:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249747#Comment_118249747

i have no idea. hence my belief a United Ireland is most likely beyond my lifetime. I'm 37. a border poll right now would most likely be rejected. and like some of us are arguing, we haven't began to scratch the surface of the issues. So if it somehow passed, we'd be up **** creek for at least 20 years. again it doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to come up with many problems. even if you discount the violence aspect.

SF back some of my proposals so we will see. but as i said living in Ballybough i think they are telling some people what they want to hear. I see a split emerging and a whole heap of Southern Nationalists joinging something like the Nationalist Party.

I'd love to see a peaceful, United Ireland. It would instantly make Ireland a greater country. larger, two large cities, some of the Islands best geography, great people and culture. But its the same dream i have of Ireland winning the Rugby World Cup. its highly unlikely.

As i think you said you are a rugby fan. the rugby team shows you the possibilities. but you also don't have to dig deep to find the true beliefs of Irish legends like Best or Trimble.

BluePlanet · 01-12-2021 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118249696#Comment_118249696

Totally misrepresenting my post. I put AGS in quotes for a reason.

United Ireland Poll - please vote

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