United Ireland Poll - please vote

I don't defend the role of the church in anything Mark.

I asked you to evidence a few claims you made.

If a school is a 'Catholic' school by ethos or vice versa then that is 'segregated' education and the south and Britain are full of schools like that.

What is it that is being taught in the North that is different to here or anywhere else? Can you see the accusation you are making about staff and school managements?

Can you back that up along with the 'mainstream' claim and stop telling me what I am doing or not doing?

I am not 'defending' anything Mark...today alone several sensationalist claims have been made on here. I am asking you to tell me what it is Catholic or Protestant schools are teaching in the north that they aren't teaching in the rest of Ireland or in Britain.

And whenever you can back up the 'mainstream' comment, that would be good too.

Read the first sentence. Tiresome Mark.

You don't have an argument when you don't have any evidence of schools deepening the divide in the north.

Once again it is a sensational soundbite so you can attack your boogeymen and women. YAWN.

Get back to me when you have some facts.

Stop with the leading pejorative questions, and look at the clear evidence from academic research.

"The structure of education in Northern Ireland reflects the deep sectarian divisions. Education effectively preserves and perpetuates division for future generations by separating children at a formative stage and inculcating them into a society that has normalised this segregation. If Northern Ireland is ever to break away from the toxic codes of contested identity, then sectoral barriers in education need to be made more porous."

To take a religious analogy, those that deny the sectarian nature of education in Northern Ireland make Peter look like a truthsayer.

Come off it Francie.

Well Sinn Féin are primarily interested up north in keeping themselves on top of the pile of voters that make up 'nationalists'. If that means sticking it to the DUP and unionism generally on a regular basis, that's just what they'll do to keep their high ground. Likewise the DUP have employed same tactics to keep their respective foot on the throat of unionist voters. There's no hope for change in the immediate future until the plain people of NI reject both and starting looking for cross community political representation. With both SF & DUP capable of ruthlessly supressing the emergence of same.

There's a whole heap of work to be done north and south if we are ever to achieve that goal of a peaceful transition to some form of UI. I don't think anyone is ready for it yet at all.

So my priority is to fix the root cause of that. Which is? A century long sectarian bigoted statelet ignored and allowed to fester.

No denial here.

You are no better then than the people who founded it on that basis, and in the 100 years since, you haven't grown beyond a simple sectarian count.

The research has shown that you start with the education system, there are realms and realms of the stuff.

Or this

"The educational system in Northern Ireland is part of the reason that the society remains harshly divided 20 years after the Troubles, but changes to the system have the potential to move Northern Ireland towards increased social cohesion and harmony in a religiously and politically divided society."

You are spouting nonsense Francie. Fix the education system, fix the sectarian divide.

You don't want it to change for fear it stops the sectarian head count approach which you misguidingly have put your faith in.

True, and that is the next thing that needs to change. However, the education system is more of a priority, because integrated and non-denominational education will help people realise how outdated and unnecessary that system is.

Fiddle on the edges????? Nonsense.

Create the conditions that unite the people as the GFA and Constitution tell us to do. That is what I am asking, and that is where SF are failing.

I am all in favour of it, but why wait? The fabled promised land of an Ireland 2.0 depends on so many others, when there are changes that can be made today, North and South, that will make people's lives better, so why waste time on dreams that may never be fulfilled.

I find it kinda hilarious in some way that when the controversy about the founding of NI was taking place, we had plenty of armchair republicans puff out their chests and proclaim how proud they were of their president....

.... yet the same president calls out the insanity of segregated education in the North... and the same armchair Republicans go... 'Look! Over There!!'

Who indeed. Bigots on both sides I guess who want to keep the divide going for basic political purposes. We can see it on this very thread!

Oh, as I said already, the DUP and SF are the two sides of the same sectarian coin that are preserving the sectarian education system. They have been called out for it in the Assembly by the Greens, the SDLP and the Alliance.

Change is coming to Northern Ireland, just not the change that Sinn Fein or the DUP expect.

That suits me; I've lived in both. Grew up in the North, married and settled, 'down south', so clearly everyone should just defer to me.

Jokes aside, to actually address your point; if a bloke from North Antrim who had spent a few hours in Drogheda once five years ago started telling someone in Dublin how they should vote and patronisingly insisting that they just don't understand what it is like in Ireland, I'd happily call that out too.

Those arguing against, 'exclusionary Nationalism' are arguing against a strawman of their own creation, and ironically some have demonstrated a more exclusionary mentality than that they profess to be arguing against. Many Nationalists may well be unable to put themselves in the shoes of Unionists, but indeed many Nationalists (particularly those from NI) understand Unionism much better than those arguing on this thread who have never actually had a conversation with a typical middle class border county Unionist, let alone a hardline Loyalist from East Belfast.

If in a United Ireland, the roles were simply reversed with regards to how the CNR community were treated upon the foundation of NI, I would vote against it. Pretending that anyone is arguing in favour of that is just another strawman. A handful of armchair Republicans in a pub shouting about how they'll take the flag and anthem from their cold dead hands are hardly representative of typical views. I fully accept the need to compromise and show outreach.

If asked would I like to give up the flag/anthem in a poll, I'd answer no and you'd point to it as evidence that I'm unwilling to compromise, but despite not liking the idea of giving up the flag/anthem, I'd be entirely willing to do so if it made it easier for a significant minority in our new country. What I won't countenance is the professed ideas on here about a return to a Unionist veto on how we progress as a country, which is precisely what another poster on this thread has repeatedly suggested (and was probably the source of most of my sarcastic ire).

Yes, it was in their 2016 manifesto. This comment on it is revealing:

"The SDLP’s view is that the current DUP/Sinn Fein ‘Shared’ education model does not go far enough"

Both telling in that it confirms that SDLP want more reform than SF, and that there are shared interests and goals on education between the DUP and SF.

Partition was inevitable once nationalists wouldn't settle for Home Rule.

Tackle education first, bring the next generation of young Northern Irish people to a common understanding of each other and heal division.