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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,777 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Bord Gáis Energy’s Whitegate power plant in Co Cork was due to restart operations on November 15th after shutting down to deal with unforeseen faults in December 2020.

    However, the company said on Wednesday that the electricity plant will not now restart testing for commercial operations until December 3rd after the company identified a new problem during tests this month.

    Shut-downs of both Whitegate and one of Energia’s two plants in Huntstown, Co Dublin, contributed to a squeeze on electricity supplies last winter that prompted formal warnings about stretched capacity.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/fresh-delay-hits-whitegate-electricity-plant-s-return-to-operation-1.4737659



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,652 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Only cos the overall cost of power has rocketed this year which means power prices are now exceeding the guaranteed price wind farms were getting. Once oil/gas prices drop the PSO levy will rise again significantly again. So the consumer will always be screwed thanx to our developer led energy policies. Same in the UK were the biggest supplier of "Green" energy has gone bust cos of the "price of gas". Just shows what a joke the idea that companies like SSE and Energia pedal when it comes to supplying 100% green energy


    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59373198



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What policies were led by which developers and how did they influence the policies?

    Not saying this did or didn't happen, just asking for some details and evidence



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,652 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    The scheme is getting heavy government subsidies and profitability is still poor. If governments are stupid enough to provide guaranteed prices or fat subsidies for such things then of course investors will pile in. Just like the Cash for Ash fiasco in NI



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'm pretty sure that it's a tendered strike price ,not direct subsidies ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Apparently made quite a mess of the turbine hall , fire service called , can't be too terrible if they're hopping to get going again on the 3rd

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,123 ✭✭✭gjim


    The entire output of the project has already been sold: https://www.offshorewind.biz/2021/11/24/entire-output-of-worlds-largest-offshore-wind-farm-sold-out/

    Purchasers of the generated electricity (who bid against each other) include commodity and trading companies like Shell, Danske, Centrica as well as the UK government.

    Prices for the private companies are not public but according to S&P for the UK government, "the projects were awarded Contracts for Difference support by the UK government at two strike prices: GBP39.65/MWh for Dogger Bank A, and GBP41.61/MWh for the B and C phases". This is well below the current wholesale price of electricity in the UK.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    I would of thought bio-methane is something we could utilise. We have a lot of cows so a lot of slurry which is ideal feed for bio-digester.

    We should also be doing the same with our sewage, it has the added advantage that at the moment we strip our land of nutrients which get flushed down the toilet then supplement the land with fertilizer from fossil fuels. If sewage was biodigested we produce methane and nutrient rich digestate that can be used as fertilizer.

    Hydrogen can also be turned into methane which could be put onto grid, however producing electricity to produce hydrogen to produce methane is a bit of a roundabout way of going about it and will lead to losses in each step. Better using energy in the form it is created.

    Changing over the gas grid to hydrogen seems like an awful lot of effort though, I can't see how feasible it really is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    "Hydrogen can also be turned into methane which could be put onto grid, however producing electricity to produce hydrogen to produce methane is a bit of a roundabout way of going about it and will lead to losses in each step. Better using energy in the form it is created."

    This would still save having to change the gas network to hydrogen. And if the carbon used in the Sabatier process* is removed from atmosphere it's a CO2 neutral round trip.

    Or using the Green Hydrogen in a fuel cell power station is another option. Could it replace fossil plants some day?

    80MW ain't gonna set the world alight (hopefully!) but it's a start. A real tangible plant that exists today, similar in size to the Covanta waste to energy plant in Dublin.

    * not a chemist, don't know if this is feasible at scale.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    That's capitalism nothing to do with being green. Regulator sets a maximum price gas can be sold at. IMHO any company that didn't hedge their bets against costs going above that was trading recklessly.

    UK govt has given them a £1.69 Bn loan to keep going. As this is £1,000 per customer it would take years to make it back, esp since it's likely to go up to £2.1bn by the end of the UK tax year. (About 90% of the UK's energy companies are expected to leave the market by then.)

    But the important thing is the shareholders got paid in other years. And they won't have to swallow the billions in costs.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Was just reading the above article about hydrogen production in Korea , and beneath it was something about synthetic jet fuel from hydrogen - which seems to be all the rage - then I remember that bio-diesel is often made from vegetable oil ,which is cheap ( dearer than petroleum without tax but relatively cheap ) - and there's not much difference between diesel , kerosene and jet fuel , so why all the fuss with hydrogen based fuels ?

    Or am I missing something major ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://www.doosanfuelcell.com/en/prod/prod-0102/ PureCellⓇ Model 400 Hydrogen 440KW Electrical efficiency 50% ( +35% Heat if using for CHP ) - the PureCell that runs on natural gas is 45% electrical efficiency

    The best combined cycle gas turbines are 60% so for grid scale you might as well burn Hydrogen as is. Gas turbines don't run cleanly on things that leave deposits on the blades like powdered coal or boron fuels (zip fuel). But other than that they'll run on most fluid fuels whose combustion products are gases. During the cold war they even tried using the heat from a nuclear reactor instead of combustion to heat air.


    For long distances flights the weight of the fuel can weigh as much as everything else so you have to use light atoms (more chemical bonds per kg) which that limits what can be used. Hydrogen is too bulky even if you use it as a very hard to handle liquid. Lithium and Lithium Hydride are solids so hard to get into a turbine. Lithium Oxide is also a solid so hard to get out of a turbine. Beryllium is the same but is also extremely toxic. Then there's Boron which is a solid but also has a family of hydrides all of which ignite in contact with air and leave glassy deposits all over the engine, and are also extremely toxic. Nitrogen is inert, but with hydrogen it can be made into ammonia which is hard to ignite and toxic and corrosive, you could use hydrazine as a fuel but it's way nastier and doesn't need air to burn or explode. Fluorine, no just no. Yes you can make a high density liquid with chlorine such as chlorine trifloride or chlorine pentafluoride but they are the closest things we have to universal solvents and that is the least of the problems. Most of the next line on the periodic table are solids whose oxides are also solids so not much use in a gas turbine except for sulphur dioxide which is a gas we don't want to add to the atmosphere.

    So you are left with hydrocarbons and slightly less energy dense variations with oxygen too like alcohols and other biofuels.


    Removing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere is a huge waste of energy IMHO, compared to capturing it at source. It's measured in ppm. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/sep/09/worlds-biggest-plant-to-turn-carbon-dioxide-into-rock-opens-in-iceland-orca captures 4,000 tonnes of CO2 a year. Call it $80 a tonne. The plant is worth €320,000 a year. It cost $15m to build. Payback time is 47 years ignoring all running costs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    ^^ Nice! Didn't know burning hydrogen was advanced as it is...

    If that Dutch plant can run on 100% by 2027, hydrogen combustion is very close.




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,652 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    That is the same type of BS companies like SSE claiming they are supplying "100% Green energy" or Amazon building that windfarm in Donegal which destroyed a huge area of bogland and claiming it will supply their date centres🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,416 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    It's what they are paying, it's what businesses can buy electricity at, it's also a strike point over half as cheap as Nuclear in that market, and one that is facing significant downward pressure.


    Ultimately it is the cost that will decide and that's what is slowly killing Nuclear and oil.


    It is not because some care about the Whales and Pandas



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    As I have said before 'efficiency is in the wallet'. The same applies to climate change, and general Green Policies - the success must be measured in the wallet.

    It is cheaper to heat a home that is well insulated. It is cheaper to fuel an electric vehicle than an ICE vehicle. PT must be made cheaper than an ICE vehicle alternative.

    People react to price - not so much exhortation to 'save the planet' - more 'save the cash'.



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    I guess the sorry state of the UK and German Grids in terms of increasing dependency on coal and Russian gas has softened alot of coughs on that one

    Why let facts get in the way of your posts? Still I am sure you know more than the people actually running the grid.

    Rob Rome, Interim Head of National Control at National Grid ESO, said: “2020 has been a record-breaking year for Great Britain’s electricity system. The grid continues to transform at an astonishing rate, as we move away from fossil-fuel generation and harness the growth of renewable power sources.

    “It’s an exciting time and the progress we’re seeing with these records underlines the significant strides we’re taking towards our ambition of being able to operate the system carbon free by 2025.”




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Stop picking one off incidents and using them to construct bogus and dishonest images of unreliability:

    Long report on the state of nuclear here - have a look at France - Page 87 onwards (other countries also have problems)

    Nuclear is not dependable. The virtues promoted are it being on 24/7 for long times. The problem is not just that output can fall to zero without notice if there is an unplanned incident, it's also that you can't rely on nuclear to come back on line , on time.

    Unavailabilities at zero power affecting the French nuclear fleet reached a total of 6,475 reactor-days, an average of 115.5 days per reactor. All of the 56 reactors were affected, with cumulated outages between 3.5 days and the full year.

    NB. this 4 month offline per reactor did not include times when output dropped but stayed above zero because heat or drought affected cooling. (to be pedantic Flamanville-3 was due to start in 2012 now delayed to 2024 so it's really 6840 reactor-days or 120 days x 57 reactors)

    On 13 days 50% (28/56) of the reactors were down for at least part of the day. 20 (over 1/3rd) units were down simultaneously for 158.5 days (43% of the year). Extensions to planned outages increased the average downtime by 44% but were still considered "Planned" by EDF


    You can't have safe and reliable nuclear power cheaply. If you spend the money to do it right it's uneconomic today and predictably insanely uneconomic over the future life of the plant.

    Since 2009 the cost changes are : nuclear +34%, coal +1%, gas -29%, wind -70%, solar -90%

    The lowest awarded contracts for Spain's 3GW of renewable were €15/MWh solar (€20/MWh for onshore wind). That's an eight of the current Hinkley strike price of £106.12 (€125.07) so a hydrogen pipeline to the UK doesn't sound crazy ?


    https://www.powermag.com/how-much-will-hydrogen-based-power-cost/

    “Hydrogen generation from low-cost renewables at $25/MWh with a capacity factor of 50% yields a cost of $1.70/kg of hydrogen produced. Storing this hydrogen underground will add about another $0.30/kg, thus the hydrogen costs $2/kg. If this hydrogen is used to generate power, the resulting cost is $100 to $200/MWh. In ideal conditions (e.g. a CCGT turbine at 60% utilisation), the cost is $100/MWh

    Energy cost of €15/MHw should mean hydrogen at €1.02/Kg , transport of €0.21/kg per 1,000km so €1.23/kg which pro-rata works out at €61.5/MWh £52.1) (Shortest distance Spain - UK is 500km and use lower pumping cost / volume of scale to get €1.07/Kg ~ €53.5MWh £45.3)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Scotland has a huge number of hydro electric projects, about 5000GWH a year comes from Scottish Hydro power,.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,858 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    There's 1.65GW of hydro but wind provides four times as much power. 19.7 TWh from onshore wind, 3.5TWh offshore, Hydro is 5.9 TWh others 2.7TWh

    Exports were 19.3TWh vs imports of 1.1TWh which gives an idea of how much we could have been exporting, and an idea of the surplus power that could be stored.

    They've 14GW of mostly wind in the pipeline too



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,652 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Its you that needs to get your facts straight pal - I was talking about 2021 when energy demand surged after a big drop off in 2020 due to Covid lockdowns, so your stats are basically BS in terms of an averge year of power demand. Wind has failed miserably to meet the needs of economies this year and was most apparent during peak demand times like during the exceptionally cold Spring over large parts of Western Europe and now again as colder weather arrives

    https://fortune.com/2021/09/16/the-u-k-went-all-in-on-wind-power-never-imaging-it-would-one-day-stop-blowing/

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/low-wind-speeds-hurt-profits-at-two-of-europes-major-energy-firms.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,652 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    "Wealth of Wind power" - you are some joker🤣. As we experience another cold winters night when wind is contributing FA to the grid. If you and your type on here were dependent on wind power you would be offline most of the time!!



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,540 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    We peaked at 3.8 GW of wind generation yesterday!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: I have split off Nuclear posts to a new thread - https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058220157/nuclear-future-for-ireland

    Any new Nuclear posts here will be deleted because I cannot transfer them.

    Your co-operation in appreciated.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Was a terrible day weather wise yesterday, there'll be maybe 10 similar between now and March



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    E Ryan suggested that a feed in tariff is coming shortly. Depending on the price, it might encourage many to go the PV solar root with battery back up. It might shorten the pay-back period by a few years. Certainly farmers and factory owners with huge sheds might find it a profitable little earner.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,866 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    With Ireland's public debt currently running at over €150,000 per tax payer, that is great news. I hope they give 20+ year guaranteed subsidies to solar farm chancers, and; in for a penny, in for a pound, might as well retrofit all lamp posts with charging sockets, and increase the subsidy for EV's and vastly increase spending on public transport...

    Post edited by cnocbui on


  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob



    Ok let's go thru you post on this

    Its you that needs to get your facts straight pal - I was talking about 2021 when energy demand surged after a big drop off in 2020 due to Covid lockdowns, so your stats are basically BS in terms of an averge year of power demand

    As a result of the covid-19 lockdownelectricity use in Scotland declined significantly. In the first 6 months of the year, average daily electricity demand in Scotland in 2021 is similar to 2020, and down 10% compared to 2019. The trend in electricity consumption mirrors the level of lockdown restriction in place with the lowest electricity consumption levels reported when the most stringent lockdown restrictions were in place.

    Result - this is not accurate


    Wind has failed miserably to meet the needs of economies this year and was most apparent during peak demand times like during the exceptionally cold Spring over large parts of Western Europe

    • Renewable electricity generation in Q1 2021 in Scotland dropped for the first time since 2016 – 8.8 TWh were generated between January and March 2021. This is down 24% on the same period last year, and is likely due to decreases in wind and rain levels compared to previous years.

    result = partially true but as there as been a reduction but the overall volume of electricity generated is still approx 75% of overall electricity requirements. So this is overall inaccurate.

    and now again as colder weather arrives

    I am not sure which country you live in but there is no problem with wind speeds at the moment (google Storm Arwen)

    result = this is inaccurate

    Congratulations on cramming so many inaccuracies into such a short post.

    Tell me is your posting approach based on emotion or is there sone logic to it?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The public debt has no relevance to a feed in tariff.

    You buy in at one rate, perhaps a cheaper off-peak rate, and feed back at a substantially discounted rate. The rate you buy and sell at suits the supplier. It is not a subsidy unless they try a trick like the 'cash for ash' scandal.

    Fitting charging points to lamp posts is quite a good idea if the user pays for the electricity. The electricity is already there, and all it needs is a connector and a method of collecting the money.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    They'll be vandalised in days and the ones remaining working will be blocked, Has any Green activist left their home since 2003?



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