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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users Posts: 839 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Distributed storage like this has huge potential, not only for renewable energy storage but lessening the peak demand on the grid as you say above. 100,000 houses using battery with discharge of 2.5kW is like having another Turlough Hill at your disposal.

    A Boardsie in Ireland with 6kW solar panel system and 8kWh battery used no imported electricity for two months this summer. Can obviously use off peak electricity during winter. Modular battery packs like BYD and Puredrive can be added to if your consumption goes up etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    I've heard claimed large scale hydrogen electrolysis cost was a split of about 60%/40% between electricity cost and capex.

    But that's only one part of the cost - hydrogen is expensive to store and transport and infrastructure for storage and transport are also capex heavy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim



    I think your costs are a bit optimistic - the 10kWh battery and inverter will be 10k easy and the PV will be about the same again?

    In terms of public policy, what you can do domestically in terms of batteries and PV panels, can be done way cheaper at scale. If €5B is to be spent on solar and batteries, then doing at grid scale will buy about 5 times as much PV capacity or about 7 times as much li-ion storage - looking at Lazard's LCOE table. Although this ignores the cost of the required transmission infrastructure.

    As an aside, if you're concerned about CO2 and you're using natural gas for cooking and heating, then you could achieve more for CO2 emission reduction by switching to electricity instead of natural gas. Grid electricity is already 42% green and will get more green each year. The CO2 saved by relying on domestic PV and batteries instead of grid electricity is not as much as you'd think and will get less each year. By 2030, your domestic set-up will only be marginally more green than consuming grid electricity.

    On the other hand, switching to electricity for cooking and heating will reduce your carbon foot print significantly. And as the years go by, the reduction will actually grow. Cooking should be easy, heating maybe not so easy although I find domestic thermal storage systems interesting.

    We've been conditioned to think that reducing electricity consumption is key to helping the environment and this was definitely the case when grid electricity had high carbon intensity. But as the grid gets greener, there's more benefit to using electricity where traditionally fossil fuels were used - transport and domestic heating and cooking are big opportunities.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    OK, that makes sense.

    However, I am looking at my bills in € rather than my CO2 budget.

    Also, I am looking at the pressure on the grid - by using off peak electricity to charge my battery to replace peak electricity, I am halving my electricity bill, and reducing pressure on the grid (else why would they give me cheaper electricity) this must be a good thing. Now if there was a smart meter allied to a feed in tariff, I could make local savings be more green than pure CO2 mitigation.

    Maybe, my figures are a bit on the soft side, but the idea makes more practical sense than recycling plastic bottles that should never exist in the first place. If you want to be truly green, you cut back on you consumption of everything that is not essential.

    [Edit:

    It might be cheaper overall to do things on the grid rather than domestically, just as it is cheaper to provide transport for all using public transport - train and bus - but having one's own infrastructure, whether that is a PV/battery installation or a shiny electric car, is much more satisfying than suffering a blackout or a transport strike, even though the EV might get stuck in grid lock with all the other EVs.

    Also, if it is grid based, it is funded 100% by the tax payer or by higher bills or both. The domestic installation is largely by the owner, with some subsidy. So from the Gov perspective, domestic can be less efficient, but costs the Gov less. The engineer in me tells me that the measure of efficiency is in the wallet.]

    Post edited by Sam Russell on


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    They don't seem to get the € bit, Grasping that a €5-6 k electricity isn't an option for most households seems to beyond them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,435 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Is anyone suggesting a 5 or 6 grand electricity bill ?

    Although if you were to take the current electricity prices as a basis - add in what ever increases come from new processes , and add in completely shifting your heating to electricity and possibly your car too ,then the bills going to be high - by recent standards -

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    No idea what your point is or who "they" refers to?



  • Registered Users Posts: 839 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    That the government don't understand most people don't have €5k or €6k to invest in a solar battery setup?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,937 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    That is disingenuous. The two are not comparable. It's like a car company that has only made large cars for consumers, but made a small expensive specialist vehicle for the millitary, announcing they had plans to make a small car for consumers. They may not have done so previously, but it's not a new invention and requires no new technologies, nor - for me anyway - any great stretch of credulity.

    Then there is the technical capacity and reputation of Rolls-Royce, which I personally hold in high regard, as I wouldn't be typing this if it were not for the quality of their products in WW2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 839 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    About €1 per Watt of solar and about €400 per kWh of battery including inverter, installation and commissioning.

    Economy of scale and LCOE favour the large scale operations as you pointed out but the transmission network upgrades could add delays and costs which have to be taken into account. Using existing domestic supply wiring is a neat solution even if the batteries appear to cost more per kWh.

    Also small areas across the country where local transformers are overloaded can be targeted.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Rolls Royce Ltd went bankrupt in 1971. So anything after is a different company - it was the RB211 engine that did for them. It was nationalised from 1971 until 1987, when it was sold off. The car business was set up as a different company and was sold to Vickers in 1980. Now Rolls Royce name is owned by BMW and VW owns the Bentley name - or is it the other way round?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I edited post #1831, but had not noticed later posts, so I repeat it here.

    It might be cheaper overall to do things on the grid rather than domestically, just as it is cheaper to provide transport for all using public transport - train and bus - but having one's own infrastructure, whether that is a PV/battery installation or a shiny electric car, is much more satisfying than suffering a blackout or a transport strike, even though the EV might get stuck in grid lock with all the other EVs.

    Also, if it is grid based, it is funded 100% by the tax payer or by higher bills or both. The domestic installation is largely by the owner, with some subsidy. So from the Gov perspective, domestic can be less efficient, but costs the Gov less. The engineer in me tells me that the measure of efficiency is in the wallet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,722 ✭✭✭✭josip


    "Football is a simple game, twenty-two men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans always win.”

    Gary Lineker, 1990



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,966 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    https://gasforclimate2050.eu/ehb/ Investment: €43-81 billion, for the 2040 infrastructure to distribute hydrogen around Europe. Report : https://gasforclimate2050.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/European-Hydrogen-Backbone_April-2021_V3.pdf

    By 2035 In Ireland, a hydrogen valley could emerge in the south around the coastal city of Cork, where hydrogen could also be imported by ship. ...

    In the northwest of Europe, the 2040 pan-European network would also connect Ireland with the UK to the rest of the European Hydrogen Backbone, by repurposing one of the interconnectors from the UK to Ireland and by repurposing of the IUK interconnector from Belgium to UK. In Ireland, a hydrogen valley could emerge around Dublin, just south of where the repurposed interconnector from the UK would land.


    https://www.reuters.com/business/cop/europes-gas-firms-prime-pipelines-hydrogen-highway-2021-11-18/ Grey hydrogen is already used for a tenth of Germany's power usage mostly in steel and chemicals.


    Technically you could see storage of Oxygen too (but not in disused gas fields) to allow gas turbines to run more efficiently, reduce nitrogen oxides, and make carbon capture easier as the exhaust would be almost entirely carbon dioxide and water. You could dilute the oxygen with carbon dioxide or water to keep the turbine temperature down. Using high pressure oxygen or water would reduce compressor losses too. Not too sure on the economics though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14 EtonMess


    What are the chances of another pumped storage facility opening in Ireland? I've heard of a small proposal for a site in Tipperary at a former quarry. To my mind it is the only realistic option for energy security in a move to full renewable power generation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭specialbyte


    That is the Silvermines Pumped Hydro storage project. Silvermines project will probably be operational by 2026 at the earliest. There's a good update on the project here: https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/planning-for-silvermines-hydropower-station-to-be-submitted-next-year-1.4705015

    It will have a peak discharge time of about 6 hours of storage. Peak power output of Slivermines Hydro is 360MW, which is about 10% of Ireland's peak demand. We would need to build a very large number of pumped hydro stations to provide significant levels of short-medium duration storage (4 hours - one week). Ireland's geography isn't that well suited, with no tall mountains.

    In the early 2000s, there was talk about big pumped hydro scheme on the west coast using a coastal valley and sea water called Spirt of Ireland. It never really got anywhere (and I doubt it would again if the project was revived).

    For now, building more interconnectors like the 700MW Celtic to France and 500MW Greenlink to the UK will provide good access to power from UK and France when our renewables are low.



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    The reactors in nuclear submarines use enriched uranium as a fuel i.e the type that can be used for bombs. This is banned for use in domestic settings for obvious reasons.

    RR need to develop an SMR with a different fuel type, the same as currently used in existing power stations. So it is not as straightforward as you seem to think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,937 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    It is straightforward. No new tech required, just a new design based on existing and known engineering data and principles. They came up with a design for a reactor in nuclear subs that only needs to be refuelled in 20 years time. I think the French one is only good for 14 years. Suddenly it's an insurmountable and iffy problem for them to overcome - really hard to deal with the complexities and constraints of a civilian power plant running on less radioactive fuel and all that room to play with, compared with miniaturising one for a sub, powerful enough to run a small town.

    I'd say it would be a comparative cake-walk. Talk about inventing problems.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,937 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Large scale pumped storage is often not eco-friendly, as it involves flooding large tracts of land and extiguishing habitat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    SMR's are not new, they have been around for decades and they have failed at each and every attempt.

    Here is an article from 6 years ago on the history of SMRs going back to the 50's

    The author summarises with -

    Sadly, the nuclear industry continues to practice selective remembrance and to push ideas that haven’t worked. Once again, we see history repeating itself in today’s claims for small reactors—that the demand will be large, that they will be cheap and quick to construct.

    But nothing in the history of small nuclear reactors suggests that they would be more economical than full-size ones. In fact, the record is pretty clear: Without exception, small reactors cost too much for the little electricity they produced, the result of both their low output and their poor performance



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Using the term "cake walk" in the context of anything nuclear related shows a fundamental lack of respect and understanding of the complexities and dangers inherent in anything to do with this.

    If it was so simple there would be 50-100 built already.

    Just for clarification, how many SMR's are running as commercial power generation entities around the world? I'll give you a hint, you won't need to use all of the fingers on one hand to count them all



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,937 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    So exactly the same as the renewables + hydrogen generation and storage systems delivering net zero CO2 grids.

    So for the record, do you think designing, building and commissioning small reactors for submarines is technically easier and less challenging than is likely for land based SMR's? That's what you believe? Making a desk clock is far harder than a 3.65mm thin wrist watch?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,185 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    But how many of them are actually in service on an electricity grid?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,937 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    In the early 1950's De Haviland attempted to make a pressurised jet passenger aircraft. There were a number of crashes.

    We can all be thankful that the aviation industry realised the folly of this dangerous technology and ceased pursuit of this unsafe and unwelcome 'innovation', and that instead, we today enjoy leisurly 7 hour transatlantic flights in safe, unpressurised, propellor driven aircraft. There is nothing as reassuring and soothing as the loud drone of 8 large radial engines as you thump and bump your way through the inevitable air turbulence at a safe and sensible 3,200m.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    System demand is currently just shy of 6600MW of which 180MW is coming from renewables.

    The 360MW Silvermines scheme really would be of use. Coal providing 22% of demand.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Why do you keep falling back to strawman arguments?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,130 ✭✭✭gjim


    "It is straightforward. No new tech required, just a new design based on existing and known engineering data and principles."

    RR themselves are saying it will take a decade to get the first one operational - on top of work they've been doing in this area for decades already and they claim to have the biggest team of nuclear scientists and engineers in the UK.

    Maybe what all these scientists and engineers are lacking is a visionary like yourself to point out the error of their ways - if only they put as much thought as yourself into the problem then they'd realise that it's "straightforward" and involves "no new tech" and we could have operational SMRs in six months or so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Strategic Power Projects given go ahead to connect 185MW solar/battery facility.

    The 60 hectare (150 acre) site is expected to generate 50MW of green electricity when fully operational.

    It also includes one of the largest battery storage facilities at 135MW which will provide system services and security of supply to the grid, after warnings of system black outs in Ireland “caused alarm recently”, the company said.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/strategic-power-projects-to-receive-connection-offer-for-louth-solar-and-battery-project-1.4734754

    Head of Codling project highlights on-going problems with planning/offshore licences:

    Codling plans to install up to 140 turbines but, after planning delays, construction may only start in early 2025. 

    Mr Verbeek said that it can build a wind farm of this size in two years but the planning can take far too long. He said accelerating the pace was required and needing to spend eight years on planning and on surveys needs to be shortened.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/business/economy/arid-40743159.html

    Above article has good summary of proposed projects:

    Mr Verbeek said his project, which plans to produce between 0.9GW and up to 1.5GW, will be double what is planned by the next largest project planned for the Irish Sea by 2030.

    The other projects include the Dublin Array of Bray and Kish which is due to produce between 0.6GW to 0.9GW of power; the Arklow Bank Phase 2 project which is expected to generate 0.52GW to 0.8GW; the North Irish Sea Area, or Nisa, which is expected to deliver 0.5GW; and Oriel in Louth, which is slated to deliver between 0.37GW and 0.4GW of power. 

    The Sceirde project off Connemara, and the only Phase One project outside of the Irish Sea, is due to deliver 0.35GW and up to 0.45GW in power.

    A key point raised before, if you're going to build off-shore wind farms, you need suitable port infrastructure:

    Verbeek was speaking after Codling Wind Park confirmed that it has chosen Wicklow Port as its operations and maintenance base in a move that will create 115 jobs locally. Industry sources estimate the investment needed at €15 million.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/energy-and-resources/edf-and-fred-olsen-choose-wicklow-port-for-wind-farm-base-1.4726711



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,435 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Not helped by whitegate still being offline, and likely to be for a while yet ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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