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Sexual assault at high school in the State of Virginia.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    And as bubblypop said anyone can walk into any bathroom currently and have been able to do so for all time.

    I can saunter into the public ladies toilets anywhere I want. Maybe some people will try and stop me or comment. Others will ignore it and not want to interfere.

    Whether they interfere or not, NONE of their decisions will be because they think I'm "neutrois" and have an opinion on whether "neutrois" people can or can't use women's bathrooms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Completely different situations as I've explained.

    Trans people ask that a respectful term be used to describe them. They ask that people use a word that the vast vast majority of anti-trans people are happy enough to use "trans woman". Doesn't seem that much of an ask.

    Anti-trans posters ask that NO word be used that carries an implication that they are not the only valid women.

    It's not the same thing.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'll never, ever surrender to cis language.

    I'll always be a man. Not by identification, but because that's what I am whether I like it or not.

    Never, ever cis man. I'm not going to be compelled to change my language to accommodate and participate in the ideology of someone else.

    I wouldn't demand this of anyone, so I'd appreciate if everyone else paid me the same favour.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    Nobody is asking you to use cis.

    Maybe you misunderstand what is happening.

    It is anti-trans posters who are saying cis should not be used. It is NOT TRAs trying to get others to use cis. We don't give a fiddler's whether you use cis yourself or not.

    So please feel free to continue describing yourself as a man. We have zero issue with that.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Can you actually describe what an anti-trans poster is?

    Aren't you simply describing what everyone else knows to be gender critical?

    On here, I've seen no anti-trans comments. Gender critical comments yes, but nothing that could be described as anti-trans.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's not the same thing because you don't see the usage of trans terminology as being offensive. Whereas I do find the usage of CIS as being offensive. As I said, there's a double standard... and that can be seen within your own posts.

    As for anti-trans, you've just reinforced my earlier point that there is no middle ground. Either you're pro-Trans, or you're anti-Trans. Either you accept and use the language they've created, or you're against them. Either with us or against us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    The vast vast majority of anti-trans posters both in boards and on any other forum I've encountered are happy to use trans woman. So it's not that it's ME who doesn't find the term "transwoman" offensive, it's that nobody does.

    So that's not the difference between anti-trans posters using "trans identified male" and TRAs using "cis".

    As I stated and as you ignored, the difference is that TRAs are not opposed to their being a word to describe transwoman and the concept being discussed. Whereas anti-trans posters do not want a word to exist to describe the concept of cis people. They do not want it acknowledged or discussed and see banning cis as a way to achieve this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    It encompasses a wider range of viewpoints than being critical of gender. It's anyone who posts in favour of limiting trans rights or lowering the dignity of trans people.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Is acknowledging biology lowering dignity of transpeople in your opinion?

    Do you think it's dignifying to ignore what you know to be right to spare someone's feelings?

    In my opinion it is more dignifying to not be so condescending and patronising that you will tell a biological man that you believe they are a woman, when you know that simply isn't true.

    Men shouldn't have permission to access women only spaces.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    I didn't say any were missing, I said posters who campaign to limit them.

    If you're happy with the current legal status in Ireland then I have no issue with you Eskimo 🤗



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Imo, it is bad manners to assert your beliefs onto someone if they have not asked for your opinion.

    For example, I don't believe in god, any god, I happen to think organised religion is nothing but a way to control people.

    What I don't do however is tell religious people that they are wrong. That there is no god.

    They are well within their rights to believe whatever they so wish. For me to impose my beliefs into them is rude, wrong and extremely hurtful. It is not right to do so.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I agree.

    So you would be cool with religious people being themselves, believing what they want about themselves, just once you aren't compelled to go along with their crazy belief and their religion doesn't impact you in any way and people aren't vilified for not believing their made up and demonstrably incorrect belief?

    Perfect, I'm in agreement with that.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    people can believe whatever they like, in fact I will defend their right to believe in what they want. Everyone has a right to their beliefs

    I don't have to believe it. I don't have to tell them what I believe either, unless they ask.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Again I agree.

    But facts should always supercede a belief. A belief that you are the opposite sex should not grant you permission to expect to be treated as such when it is demonstrably false.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    But is it not the same?

    I believe there is no god, because I believe there is no proof.

    religious people believe there is a god, they believe some things prove it, doesn't prove it to me.

    I have no idea if people are born into the wrong body, I neither believe nor not believe. I can only respect their beliefs.

    The only experience I really have with transgender anything is a member of my family who was female and became a trans man, I think that's the way to describe them, I'm not even sure.

    point is, they believe, who am I to argue with them?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Where do you draw the line?

    Do you genuinely believe that a biological man can be a woman?

    Is that genuinely the hill you're willing to die on?

    Do you believe a biological man can be a woman? Yes or no.

    If yes, do you believe a person can choose their age? If not, why not? Who are you to argue with them?



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm not willing to die on any hill, thanks 😂

    I believe that a biological man can feel that they are actually a woman and who am I to disagree with them? My cousin was female and became a trans man, doesn't matter what anyone in the family personally thought, it just mattered that we all treated him as he wanted to be treated.

    Very simple.

    Don't be going on about age etc, we all know that age is non negotiable, as we know when someone was born. It's a ridiculous comparison.



  • Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    I don't know who needs to hear this, but unisex bathrooms and changing rooms are an alternative to single-sex bathrooms and changing rooms, and when five times more attacks happen in unisex bathrooms and changing rooms than single-sex bathrooms and changing rooms, that says something about single-sex spaces.

    And proving that something you previously stated does not and will not happen only happens rarely (which was never in question) is not a win.

    And hand-waving the physical and sexual assault on women and children because someone someone doing a quick internet search for a thing that was said never to happen didn't provide an exhaustive list of every case on the internet is not a good look.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Can you give statistics as to how often attacks happen in sitting rooms, or bedrooms or cars or classrooms or any other single rooms? Or is it just changing rooms and bathrooms you are obsessed with?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    The 'concept' of 'cis' people can be inferred from using man/woman.


    The 'concept' of trans people can be inferred from trans-woman/trans-man.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Until recently you wouldn’t last a second in most hotels, gyms, department store toilets and so on. Once complained. The issue now is - will people complain.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model


    Well you aren't wrong, but it's good that you acknowledge the fact that believing a Trans-woman/man is an actual women/man is just that.. A belief.


    For the rest of us, we simply have to accept how the natural world is, where a male(female) cannot be a female(male) , regardless how much we want to believe the contrary.



  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Odd deflection. I don’t imagine that pre the trans movement some feminist had provided these figures you would have asked for the number of attacks in sitting rooms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 848 ✭✭✭MilkyToast


    Your desperation to hand-wave physical and sexual attacks against women and children to preserve your ideology is really something.

    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ~C.S. Lewis



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm only pointing out the facts, sexual predators will attack anywhere. I don't see the reasoning behind the push that some people attack others in bathrooms and changing rooms. It's weird.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I have no ideology. And I have actual experience with actual women and child victims of abuse.



  • Registered Users Posts: 464 ✭✭The Quintessence Model




  • Registered Users Posts: 17,276 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    @LLMMLL I assume you are a TRA since you keep mentioning it all the time and it explains a lot


    But you still can not get it in to your head that you have no right to label a man or woman as cis implying they are not just male or female but some variation of it especially as it seems its women who are targeted most with the term. It's used for one purpose only to taunt non trans people, even within the gay community



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,588 ✭✭✭LLMMLL


    I don't know who needs to hear this, but unisex bathrooms and changing rooms are an alternative to single-sex bathrooms and changing rooms, and when five times more attacks happen in unisex bathrooms and changing rooms than single-sex bathrooms and changing rooms, that says something about single-sex spaces.

    I don't think anybody needs to hear it. As I've said im not invested in unisex spaces at all. Very happy to have a men's bathroom which both cis and trans men can use and a women's bathroom which both cis and trans women can use.

    The issue with the cases you presented were straight cis men taking advantage of unisex spaces.

    So the cases would not have been prevented by people spotting that a cis man is using a women's bathroom. Because they didn't involve a cis man using a women's bathroom. The cases could have been prevented by not having unisex bathrooms.

    Of course that has nothing to do with the case we are discussing as this case is a cis man in a girls bathroom.

    And proving that something you previously stated does not and will not happen only happens rarely (which was never in question) is not a win.

    Can you quote where I said it will never happen. Unfortunately I think all kinds of assaults will happen. I believe there will be rare cases of cis women assaulting other cis women. I believe there will be rare cases of trans women assaulting trans women. I believe there will be rare cases of straight men sexually assaulting other men, etc. But I don't believe rare cases should affect the rights of the group they come from. For instance if I found a few examples in the newspaper of members of an ethnic group behaving criminally I would not make a special law to punish the entire ethnic group.

    And hand-waving the physical and sexual assault on women and children because someone someone doing a quick internet search for a thing that was said never to happen didn't provide an exhaustive list of every case on the internet is not a good look.

    I didn't hand wave any assault. I just showed that your examples did not show what you claimed they showed. It's not a good look to post a story of someone being assaulted in a home toilet as an example of a safeguarding failure. Maybe actually read the stories next time and not just post the search results of trans+toilet.



This discussion has been closed.
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