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Pelletstown train station - How do you make a noise complaint?

  • 15-10-2021 5:58pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    I live beside the recently opened Pelletstown train station. The planning permission (2109/13) effectively no noise increase however we've found there to be a significant increase in noise from intercity diesel trains idling at station and also a service that blows it's horn on approach to the station Monday to Friday at 12:30am (hitting 75db indoors). It doesn't seem particularly obvious how to raise this issue of trains idling and horns with Irish Rail.

    Thanks.



«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    I assume you contact Irish Rail and which ever council area it’s in regarding PP issues.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Whatever about engines idling while at the station (turning off and on the engine isn't realistic) but I have often thought that blowing the horn when coming into a station is ridiculous. The people at the near end of the station get their ears blow off while the people at the other end hardly notice. Surely an audible signal could be given across the PA system instead .



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Well, they can add things like trees along the side of the station to mitigate the noise. There doesn't appear to be a point of contact for complaints to Irish rail.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    You get a time machine and object to the planning permission.

    Less facetiously, there really isn't anything you can do. Horn blowing is for safety reasons, not for fun; and trains have to stop at the station. They will be quieter when DART+ happens.

    Trees will take years to get to a sufficient size to become a decent sound block.

    What are you using as a noise meter?



  • Posts: 1,010 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Don,t contact irish rail. Keep a record and submit an obsevation to the council enforcement section in planning



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  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    I agree. Let's shut down the station so you do not have to hear a horn from a train once a day. People like you are national heroes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭afatbollix


    I think you're going to get no luck in Irish rail or the council, Just getting more and more frustrated with the lot of them.

    That leaves you with two options tbh.

    Look at making your place more noise proof, Better windows or sealing up openings.

    Or since you now have a newly opened station beside you, sell up as more than likely the prices have risen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Thanks, not all heros wear capes. There are numerous options available for mitigating noise Interference and the planning permission was amended with specific reference to noise impact. An environmental survey was carried out that predicted a 0.1 db noise level increase.

    As a result of that survey no noise mitigation steps where taken. My measurements indicate a 30 db peak increase. I don't think I'm unreasonable here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Just to confirm; 12.30 am is half past midnight, this is what you mean?

    If so, then yes, you are well within your rights. Would suggest to write to IE; Contact Us (irishrail.ie) first, and if no resolution I would complain to Dublin City Council and copy in Transport Infrastructure Ireland.

    If you go straight to the Council, the first thing they'll ask is what did IE say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    What are you using as your sound meter?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Yep, half past midnight. I used an app on my phone to measure sound levels, which I know will have limited accuracy however, the PP survey forecast a .1db increase, so we're a long way from that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭EnzoScifo


    Just FYI an app from your phone will not be given the time of day in any complaint.

    First step should be Irish Rail. Then planning enforcement in the council.


    Not too sure how far you'll get as the horn is a safety prerequisite and the sound is not prolonged.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,537 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The phone app accuracy is not "limited", it's non existent. The figure its giving is basically made up.

    You also don't have a pre-construction baseline to compare to even if your readings were off something verifiable.

    I'll have to check the planning docs but I'd expect the estimated sound increase was a daily or even yearly average and not applicable to an instantaneous read.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭Uncle Pierre


    The answer to the question "how do you make a noise complaint?" is here: https://www.gov.ie/en/service/make-a-noise-nuisance-complaint/

    Basically boils down to either contact those making the noise, contact the local authority, or contact the District Court.

    By the way, I too would expect any projected 0.1 dB increase to be a daily, weekly, or even annual average rather than meaning no more than a 0.1dB increase in any instantaneous sound. Any train rolling past even slowly would have to make a noise of more than 0.1 dB at that particular moment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭gjim


    Slightly off-topic but I'm curious about the safety aspect if it's just one train a day that uses its horn. Why would it be required for a single train but none of the others?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    The vast majority of the time the track has no trains so taking a daily or weekly average would be misleading, but perhaps that's exactly where they got the number from. Either way it's increase over the existing ambient noise level of trains on the line.

    The issue is with the big intercity diesel commuters, the engines idling alone gets a 10db increase including the horn. The Dublin commuter services are much quieter and you'd barely notice them at the station. I'd say whatever noise survey was done was based on these.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Exactly, it appears to be only the Sligo train that does, and appears to be only on approach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,544 ✭✭✭Uncle Pierre


    I wondered that myself but am assuming it's not that it's just one train a day blowing its horn. Instead, it's just the one blowing it at half past midnight that's the particular problem, and that there are no real issues with horns at other times of day when there's more ambient noise around anyway.

    Maybe also slightly off-topic, but I downloaded one of those sound level apps myself this morning out of curiosity, and left it running beside my computer for about half an hour during a Zoom call. Me speaking in a normal voice during that call gave readings of the order of 75 to 80 dB. Which suggests that either the noise (75dB, according to OP) isn't that excessive at all, or else is just proof of how inaccurate these things are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,917 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Any train not stopping at Pelletstown will sound its horn on approach - that's a safety measure. During the day that's all of the Sligo trains.

    There are two empty trains passing Pelletstown around 00:30 returning to Connolly, which presumably are the trains causing the issue for the OP.

    I am curious though as to how the Intercity ICR trains could possibly be louder than the Commuter 29000 sets. I would have thought it would be the other way around.

    To be honest OP, I suspect that you will get used to the sounds in time - residents in Swords under the flightpath of the old main runway at Dublin Airport used to never bat an eyelid as aircraft passed overhead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,600 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    The vibrations and sound from a idling bus are pretty intrusive and travel a good distance.

    I imagine a train is far worse. I think the horn you could learn to live with it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    I've found that only the sligo train sounds it's horn, the other trains do not sound their horn on approach, even at night. The station is lite up to the degree that you could see it from space.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 880 ✭✭✭Arbie


    I live a fair bit back from the station and I grew up close to a train line so have never been bothered by trains but this one at night has woken me too. I can only imagine how intrusive it is for people facing the canal. The lighting is something else, like a set from close encounters of the third kind. I'm delighted we have the station but I think Manion is dead right that Irish Rail should make every effort to minimise the noise and light pollution for residents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,917 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    A train not stopping at an unstaffed station must sound its horn on approach.

    That is not optional - it is a safety requirement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,228 ✭✭✭gjim


    Where do these requirements come from? Are they based on any empirical evidence that safety is measurably improved? If feels like a hang-over from the 19th century.

    There's no such requirement around most of Europe from what I recall. I have most experience of train systems in Switzerland which has one of the best train services in the world and such a "safety requirement" could never work there, as the vast majority of stations are unmanned, are near residential areas and see far higher non-stopping traffic than nearly any station in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,917 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer



    The Commission for Railway Regulation set the safety rules.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    I cannot find anything on CRR publications related to this? Do you know the specific guideline?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,917 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The entire safety rules are not in publicly available documents - you’d need to contact the CRR and IÉ. But I cannot see it suddenly changing just for you given that it is standard practice all across the network as a safety protocol.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    It's not just me this is affecting. This is a high density residential area. Not too sure why Safety rules are a state secret, how do you know such a rule exists? It seems very selective regarding which trains blow their horns.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,917 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    With all due respect, I don’t have to tell anyone how I know things. I’ve told you who to contact.

    Nor do I know of too many companies that publish their internal operating practices in public?

    There is nothing selective about it. The trains that are not stopping are travelling at line speed which is up to 70mph. They pose a far greater risk to anyone who happens to be on the platform and as such that’s why they sound their horn.

    My point about changing it to suit you was in the context that those same trains have been passing Clonsilla, Coolmine, Ashtown, Broombridge etc. for years and following the same safety rules there too and yet people don’t seem to have the same problem with it?

    As I said in an earlier post, you will probably get used to it fairly quickly.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,760 ✭✭✭Effects




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road



    stopping trains don't have to blow the horn, trains that are not stopping do, even if that is selective, there is good reason behind it and it won't be changing, you will need to come to terms with it.

    you live beside an active railway, noise is just a fact of life and trains are mostly quiter compared to years ago.

    the same trains at more or less the same times had been traveling the line before the station was opened and you didn't seem bothered about it.

    you will get used to it.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    One minute it's a state agency, the Commission for Railway Regulation setting the rules the next its Irish Rail and they're entitled to their corporate secrets. You're making assertions of fact and wont provide sources for the things you're claiming as true.

    Broombridge is located in an industrial estate, neighboured by a luas depo. Ashtown has a level crossing, so it makes sense that the horn is going, not sure about how built up clonsilla and coolmine are. I crew up a long rail way lines, and for my entire life Irish Rail has shown nothing but contempt for residents along lines and near stations, I remember in the late 80s and early 90s diesel trains being left running It's hardly surprising then there is a surge of complains any time infrastructure improvements are put forward, it would seem Irish Rail aim for a combative relationship with residents.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    As said earlier, the issue is the horn, not the trains passing in the night. Also I'm pretty certain there is a train around 4:30am that passes through without the horn being blown. It appears to only be these Sligo trains that are causing an issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭kaymin


    You stated that the CRR establish the safety rules which includes the blowing of horns at unmanned stations. All of the CRR current guidelines and standards are on their website at https://www.crr.ie/publications/guidelines/

    So you should be able to point out where this requirement is stated in their publications, or you are wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,917 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    What I said was that the CRR have overall responsible for safety.

    Beyond that IÉ have their own internal rules and these are not in the public domain.

    Both of those combined determine how the railway operates.

    I just happen to know that one of the rules is that if a train is passing through an unstaffed station without stopping, it must sound the horn as a safety measure, which, let’s be honest, given that it might be travelling at a speed of up to 70mph at Pelletstown, is probably reasonable.

    I am not trying to make things up here, but realistically, you are living beside an operational railway - you have to accept that there is going to be noise at anti-social hours.

    As for the diesels being left running back in the 80s and 90s, that was more the real problem that if they shut them down they would not restart - sounds daft, but that was the issue.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    rules are rules, and the trains must sound the horn when approaching an unmanned station.

    whoever set the rule doesn't actually matter, them's the rules and the drivers abide by them or else.

    switching off diesels at every station is unviable.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    I think we've established this is not a rule set by the CRR with the poster revising their position. There is literally thousands of people living within 1000meters of this new station with hundreds of new homes being built as we speak practically on the steps of the platform. Regardless of "them being the rules" this is going to be an issue which generates substantial ill will towards Irish Rail at a time when projects like the Electrification of the line. During the construction phase I raised multiple noise complaints about SISK and frankly local councillors where very happy to field complaints about Irish Rail. People have a right to know who is making these rules and why.

    Also I think you missed my point regarding diesel engines, these where trains left running over night at a standstill on the line in residential areas pumping out diesel fumes. A quick search found the practice was still happening at least up until 2006 when a hotel took a court case again Irish Rail.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,917 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I know precisely what you were referring to regarding the diesels - as I said the issue was that if they shut them down overnight, that they would not be able to restart them the following morning. It was that simple.

    To be quite honest, you sound like you have underlying issues with the railways?

    Why not consider moving to somewhere nowhere near a rail line if it’s causing that much grief for you?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭Montage of Feck


    The idling of a diesel loco is a very soothing sound, you should should consider your self lucky.

    🙈🙉🙊



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    I was replying to the other chap who seemed to think the issue was trains pulling into a station. Yep, I'm aware of the problem. In the early 90s my farther gained access to the rail line near our house and the main engine cabin for one of these diesel trains and turning off the engine. The Irish rail lads where out the next morning with blow torches trying to get the engines kicking over as apparently the starters didn't work. Anyway, they soon found a new location for the engines the idle.

    I know some people really like trains, but Irish Rail is set up to serve the needs of the public not the other way around. I'm sure you've seen what a few well placed objections in this constituency has done for the Dart West timelines.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the poster didn't revise their position, they have been clear all the way through.

    locomotives were left running for the efficiency of the railway, as starting up locomotives at that time took a serious amount of time and sometimes they would not start in cold weather meaning delayed and canceled services if not left running.

    it's very simple, if people live beside an active railway then they will just have to accept what comes with that, the same as if you move in beside an airport or an active motor way.

    when it comes to infrastructure projects the greater good will win over a minority of complaints as the benefits outweigh the negatives and a lot more people will benefit, so any improvements on this or other lines will be happening.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    so your father tried to damage one of irish rail's trains and trespassed on the railway? wonderful.

    irish rail was serving the public by leaving the locomotives running so they could up and go when required, meaning no delays or canceled services because they could not get a motive to start up, or due to the long time it would take for a successful start and warm up.

    the dart west is still happening, so the objectors have ultimately lost, good news for the passengers which this very successful and vital project will benefit.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Well I don't think he damaged them, he just turned them off. Pretty much a hero for it. Tbh im not sure there is any point discussing further with people who thinks it's OK to leave a massive diesel engine idling outside people's homes all night to the point you cannot even open a window. Disgraceful behavior from Irish Rail at the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,345 ✭✭✭Padre_Pio


    The OP didn't move beside an active station. The active station moved beside him.

    I would definitely complain about a noise at 12.30, especially if other trains don't make the same noise.

    Why do trains need to make this noise anyways? It's not like every car travelling 70mph has to beep it's horn as it passed every house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    What do you propose can be done to address your complaint to your satisfaction?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,474 ✭✭✭ForestFire


    How about after a certain time at night, these trains passing the station requiring the safety horn to be applied, actually stop at the station briefly, avoiding the need to sound the horn?


    Did someone say these trains are empty anyway, and returning to stations?


    Also I remember quite well Dusseldorf airport having a cutoff time of 10 or 10:30 pm for landing or take off and if you missed this then adiós and off to another airport! All due to residential noise restrictions....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the station has nothing to do with it, the same happenings have been happening on the railway long before it opened.

    therefore he has been living beside an active railway without issue until now.

    trains have to make noise as that is what they do.

    they have to sound horns when approaching unmanned stations when not stopping because that is the rules and it is a safety precaution so as to be health and safety concious and for the health and safety of all of the public, as a train is not stopping in the same time frame as a road vehicle if the worst happens nor is it able to swerve to avoid.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,140 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    realistically that may not be viable due to drivers hours.

    the train and it's driver has to get to the depot or wherever it is being stored within a certain time frame with the drivers end of work in time.

    between breaking, stopping, and starting up again that could take a driver just over their hours.

    good idea theoretically but i suspect not viable in practice.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    Good question. Planning permission implied there was noise mitigation solutions that could be put in place, but did not provide specifics as it was assumed the noise level would be too low. I'd assume it would be some form of planting.

    Secondly, and the reason I asked for the guidelines for the horn blowing, is that the station despite being unmanned can be closed off. Unlike other stations a long the line, platform access can be completely closed off. The gates looked automatic to me and I believe they are reviewing if they will close platform access for reasons of security. If the horn is being blown because people might be on the platform, closing access seems a compromise.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭kaymin


    This is a typical computer says no response.

    How about stop blowing the horn at 12:30am (as you said yourself trains make noise that's what they do - no horn is required so) or if the train speed is the issue why don't they just slow down when passing through the station.



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