Pelletstown train station - How do you make a noise complaint?

Manion

And Irish Rail as bold as you like telling the Woman there is no issue. Disgraceful. Absolute thuggery robbing poor working class folk of their quality of life, simple because Irish Rail know they can run rough shot over the little people. What a shambolic way to run a rail network.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118040129#Comment_118040129

OP, as the one who actually answered your question "how do you make a noise complaint?", almost two weeks ago now, I'm just wondering if you've actually taken any of those options open to you yet?

CatInABox

Noise next to rail line is a fact of life unfortunately. I used to live next to the mainline into Kings Cross station, and that was noisy as a concert at times. I did get used to it eventually actually, the noise became quite soothing. The cement factory, though, Jesus, that was something else, shift start at 6 am with a huge whistle.

There's no harm in making a noise complaint, and I'd guess that if enough people make a complaint, then IR will make amends of some sort. Perhaps it'll be noise dampeners next to the line, perhaps it'll be an upgrade to your windows, but I'll be honest and say that I'd doubt that they'd change how they operate. The horn is there for safety reasons, and it's highly unlikely that they'll get rid of it, even if you don't think that it's necessary.

Manion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118100665#Comment_118100665

Ive contacted DCC, Irish Rail and my local TDs. Haven't heard anything back yet so will chase up again. I cannot see myself going to district court, my most likely step after this would be to raise it at the management committee AGM and see if I can get them to make representations on behalf of all residents.

Ultimately these things take a very long time, but my lived experience is that if you generate enough hassle for Irish Rail they will adapt their practices. This isn't about getting them to stop blowing the horn, I don't really care l, it's about stopping the distruption to residents for which I believe there are numerous mitigations they simply didn't put in place for cost reasons. Even restoring the planting they removed a long the line, they haven't bothered to do. Their own noise maps from 2017 show a night time Db level of 69db on this stretch.

Uncle Pierre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101104#Comment_118101104

Okay. Was just wondering. Seems you're on the right track (not sure if pun intended!) as regards trying to do something about it.

Just a couple of things that spring to my own mind, for what they're worth:

1 - Don't know myself how effective planting would be in dulling the sort of noise you're talking about. Can't imagine trees or some shrubbery blocking out that amount of noise.

2 - Would expect that the 69dB figure mentioned is a nightly average, made up of long periods of near silence and the occasional loud noise going by. It's hardly an indication that the noise level never got above 69dB. A quick google says 70dB is typical for a normal conversation, a washing machine, or a dishwasher, and a train going past - particularly one blowing its horn - has to be much louder than any of those.

What a much ado about nothing.

Manion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101285#Comment_118101285

It's all about how sound travels, so having something like shrubbery can break up the noise and reduce it's preceived loudness. There is plenty of space near the station for Planning that won't affect the line.

I should say that that the noise maps where generated back in 2017, go don't include the most recent changes or late night horns.

gjim

"The horn is there for safety reasons, and it's highly unlikely that they'll get rid of it, even if you don't think that it's necessary."

It's not just the OP. I just can't see why it's necessary. Seemingly nor do the train operators all over Europe see a need for it - 10s of thousands of trains pass stations around Europe every day without blowing horns "as a safety measure". It just comes across as a strange Irish rail anomaly.

I guess it didn't matter so much in the past as fewer people were affected given the relative lack of services. But it's going to matter more and more as new stations and services are added.

Unavoidable train noise is one thing (engines, wheels, braking noises) and I wouldn't have much sympathy for complaints about such noise - I lived near train tracks off the North Strand for years - you just have to learn to live with it if you live near a railway. But the horn noise is completely avoidable and unnecessary according to rail operators all over Europe.

I just can see the need for it, and it's going to annoy anyone living near a rail line and create opposition to needed improvements to rail infrastructure. Nobody on the thread has offered a convincing reason for having this "safety measure".

gjim

By the way, I don't remember the Enterprise and other non-stopping trains blowing their horn passing every single DART station along the costal lines. But my memory could be faulty - can anyone confirm?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118101994#Comment_118101994

the horn noise is necessary in this country for safety reasons, because other countries have decided it isn't necessary there does not mean it isn't here, given each railway operator will have some different practices, rail lines will have different characteristics etc.

we don't need to provide you with a convincing reason for the use of the horn in certain situations, we don't need to convince you or anyone that it is necessary, irish rail in conjunction with all other relevant authorities, will have deemed that it is necessary for safety reasons and that is very unlikely to change.

in ireland there is a particular problem with trespassers and we have a litigation culture.

even if horn noises do create opposition to improvements, those improvements will still be happening as the improvements outweigh a small number of people being upset by a horn noise.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102317#Comment_118102317

irish rail in conjunction with all other relevant authorities, will have deemed that it is necessary for safety reasons and that is very unlikely to change.

But it seems from the discussion above that it isn't actually a requirement at all, just some drivers do it and some don't?

Manion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102317#Comment_118102317

But no one can point to the reasons, and it's not a CRR guideline. You throw stuff out about litigation etc etc but the reality is they just do it because it's the way it's always been done. There obviously is a trade off between health and safety and quality of life issues, if not why only blow the horn when approaching a station, why not continuously, why not every train at all times. You very clearly have the attitude that Irish Rail is not accountable to the Irish People, you are very much wrong in that, though I will admit that even Irish Rail spokespersons can adopt a similar belligerent attitude.

When Sisk was operating at night on the line at the station, the trains would fly up and down there without so much as a tot. Similarly SISK themselves when operating at night where required to take steps to mitigate noise such as deactivately sirens on diggers (a health and safety measure).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118102011#Comment_118102011

Nope. I believe the train was required to travel as lower speed at night as well to avoid upsetting residents.

Manion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118097133#Comment_118097133

This was so Bizarre, I didn't state that. But you've got me thinking and I've gone and checked. The platform is 100 meters long, there are approximately 50 homes within 100 meters of the platform, but its not like the horn sounds at the platform, there are another 3000 odd homes (including apartments) within 200 meters of either end of the platform. I don't think folks commenting here comprehend how many people are living in this area of Dublin. There are 8500 people living within Royal canal park alone, with homes for another 2500 people being built directly on the approach from Connelly. On the Ashington side there is roughly another 13K, all within 500 Meters of the station, it's why it was built in the first place. For a bit of perspective, that's more than the entire population of Sligo town.

gjim

"we don't need to provide you with a convincing reason for the use of the horn in certain situations"

First of all, I'm not sure that's true. Noise pollution is legally defined in Ireland. A company or organisation can't just decide that they're going to generate lots of noise as part of their operations but refuse to provide a reason or justification for it. Builders, nightclubs, concert promoters, etc. have to get permits to be allowed to generate noise pollution near where people live. Even the airport/DAA is regulated in regard - what makes you believe that Irish Rail are exempt?

But even if there were no legal aspects to the issue, what's more puzzling is why wouldn't you provide this information? Why treat the public in such a hostile manner and blankly refuse to respond to a very reasonable request for what should be simple information to retrieve from an operating manual or safety report?

Because I cannot see any reason why sharing this information with the public would require any effort at all, the refusal to do so makes me suspicious that really this "safety requirement" (which must be kept top secret) is just ass-covering. I started this thread with little sympathy for the OP but this public-hostile attitude has turned me.

Manion

Anyway, update for those genuinely interested. DCC and Irish Rail acknowledged the complaint. DCC have passed it onto enforcement, but I haven't heard from them. Irish Rail have passed it onto some community liaison office, but I've not heard back from them. I've heard back from Roderic's Parliamentary Assistant who will make a representation to Irish Rail on behalf of the Minister.

Best case scenario for this is that at the next major works (DART+ West) some noise mitigation measures will be put in place. Worse case scenario is nothing happens, which is the same outcome from not raising the issue in the first place. If a neighbor had PP for a 6 foot wall and built a 7 foot wall some people would complain, some wouldn't, some would say "get a life" and some would say "that's city living". I honestly don't care if they blow the horn or not, Irish Rail specifically did not have planning permission to carry out works that would result in even a single dB ambient noise level increase at night. Its for Irish Rail to figure out how to comply with their community obligations, not the other way around.

Noo

Do you have a copy of the noise report? Surely its publically available online somewhere as part of the planning approval?

Manion

A summary is attached to the planning permission. I've not seen something that actually outlines what they did.

Noo

Hmm, all documents/reports that make up the planning permission should be made available. Maybe you can request a copy of it if its not online. Im only asking because an acoustic consultant could review it and see exactly how they came to their conclusions. Ultimately, it may or may not help your noise problem, but at least you'd be informed of their side and the argument you are up against.

Manion

From the An Bord Pleanala Inspectors report: Planning Authority Register Reference : 2109/13 

"A PA acoustic assessment concludes that the noise impact on residential receptors surrounding the proposed station will be negligible. " and references  Allegro Acoustic Survey as Appendix K though having gone through all the documents I can find no Appendix K.

CatInABox

Datum were contracted to run the noise monitors, and here's their doc on this:

https://webapps.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00887187.pdf

It was run over a few days in August 2020, so during construction.

Having looked at the conditions applied to the station, it appears to me that the conditions imposed are solely related to the construction of the station, and are not related to the running of the railway, which may put a large hole in your case.

Manion

I don't think you're reading the planning permission correctly. That noise survey is related to conditions applied during construction, in the report and other documents there are a bunch of stipulations related to operation of the train station, but admittedly nothing regarding noise level due to the line I referenced as the Allegro Acoustic Survey indicated negligible operating noise increase, though I cannot find that listed.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118123815#Comment_118123815

No, I don't think that I have. There's very little in there regarding noise levels from the operation of the railway, something that was operational before the existence of the station. The Allegro Acoustic Survey is solely focused on the PA system, and nothing to do with the noise level of the railway itself. There's nothing in the conditions that would support your complaint at all really, sorry to say.

However, despite all that, you should keep your complaints rolling. IR won't stop using their horns, but if you become a big enough thorn in their side, they may put measures in place just to make you go away. As I said before, there's no harm in complaining.

Manion

I discounted that one as it was commissioned by Sisk and seemed to relate purely to conditions related to construction.

Noo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118125463#Comment_118125463

Would it not be the opposite? The Allegro report most likely looked at the station itself (sorry havent seen a copy)...PA system, crowds on platform, car parking etc, basically any new noise sources to the area. The introduction of the horns is very much as a result of the station, however without seeing the report its hard to know if the horns were even thought of.

If they have been omitted fromthe report then does the OP not have a case for argument? Council cant exactly say "but our noise report says its fine so its fine" if its not in the noise report to begin with.

Edit: sorry just seen the post that says it was just a PA assessment. So yeah, unlikely they considered anything else.

Manion

The feedback from DCC environmental office is that Irish Rail maybe in breach of the Environmental Protection Agency 1992. So regardless of whats in the planning permission. They'll raise the issue with Irish rail directly.

Manion

Just an FYI, I spoke to Minister O Gorman about this last night. The response his office got from Irish Rail apparently wasn't great, he didn't go into specifics but sounded somewhat like they weren't acknowledging the issue at all. Kinda goes back to what I talked about as a culture of contempt for the general public tbh. "Your horn is very loud at night", "what horn" 🤯.