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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,641 ✭✭✭54and56


    England is like the wife of a bank manager who had a nice house and nice car in the 1970's, was invited to all the social events, sat at the front of the church every Sunday etc etc but the hubby has passed on, the pension isn't what she hoped it would be, the house still has carpets, curtains and furniture which is over 25 years old and she sadly don's one of her hats and one remaining "good" coat each Sunday to take her place at the front of the church but increasingly no one knows who she is, people feel a little sorry to see how she's trying to preserve her long lost pride and place in society and are sad that's she's too stubborn to accept meals on wheels even though her pension doesn't provide enough for her to cook full dinners 7 days a week so sometimes tea and biscuits is all she has to eat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭yagan


    And even those that do emigrate don't see themselves as immigrants in another country, they're expats!

    I think the only country they look up to is the USA, even the soccer players consider it the best retirement gig.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    France about to give GB a little starter on what it can expect if a full blown collapse of the TCA results from the NI Protocol.

    https://twitter.com/DavidGHFrost/status/1453449084245889032?s=20



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,950 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Translation here of what retaliatory measures the French are proposing :


    Not entirely sure why Frost is the one commenting on this. It's not really a Brexit matter, more of a UK-France bilateral dispute (though Brexit is undoubtedly a backdrop).



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,950 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I get the feeling the pro-Tory propaganda of the press is a big factor in this. They've absolutely no wish to draw attention to how run down many parts of the UK are, or to highlight that GB living standards are behind many parts of western Europe. Instead, purposely give everyone the misleading impression they are well off and and living in one of the richest countries in the world.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,237 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Wouldn't be expecting the richest in society to be pointing out inequality to the poorest in fairness



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,950 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Indeed, tell the plebs how well off they are and how lucky they are to be living in a country like the UK (to do otherwise would mean having to criticise and expose their Tory pals).



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    It's like a Soviet Vassal's 'department for propaganda' telling its population the potato crop is greater than ever, and the tractor factory has never had higher production rates, while the population face longer queues for food and other essentials.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,013 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's certainly part of it. How big a part is debateable given that no UK government has won a majority of the vote since early last century.

    I think there are two sides to this. In a two-party, FPTP system there's no real need to court a majority of the vote when, say 40% or so in the south will do the job for you. So, you target the middle class, rural southern English vote with a pro-business and sensible spending message. It's all bunk as we've seen but it works. You make perfunctory attempts to get seats in the regions but you know that your base is in the south and that's fine because it works.

    The problem with Johnson's strategy in 2019 is that he has replicated Starmer's problem, ie a coalition of two halves which despise each other. The North resents the South because all of the wealth is concentrated there. The South resents have to pay for the North as it is so Johnson's levelling up either involves proper spending which austere southerners despise or it doesn't which will cost him northern votes.

    I used to live near Wythenshawe and quality of life was fine though this was in 2013. The problem with stripping the state is that in situations where the state is needed, what we get is the pathetic responses of these past few years, ie dithering and corruption. The hollowing out is so bad that the Royal Navy which used to rule the waves is now barely three dozen ships depending on the US Navy to operate. The country that invented the tank and radar now can't manufacture either. It's a disgrace but this is what people sadly vote for.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭green daries


    When you stop and think about England's finest hours in history the last couple of points are quite stark. It really is a shell of what made it great (in their eyes. not so much all the places which were asset stripped)



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,653 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Also UK scientists are being “frozen out” of the £80bn EU research programme Horizon Europe because of the ongoing dispute over the Northern Ireland Brexit protocol. Some fishing won't provide world class jobs or stop any brain drain.

    UK is out of Galileo, and lost contracts on Copernicus earth observation satellites. Still hasn't confirmed participation in Copernicus going forward. The big wins for the US in putting a man on the moon were better computers and components, better quality control and project management. It's not just the research, it's the value added.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,990 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It's a dispute about the UK-EU TCA. The French argue that their fishermen are being refused licences that, under the terms of the TCA, the UK is supposed to grant them. Frost's brief as a Cabinet Office minister includes oversight of the implementation of TCA as well as of the Withdrawal Agreement.

    Ironic that it's Frost who is complaining that the French measures are not compatible with TCA obligations and "wider international law". There's a serious point to be made there, but Frost lacks any credibility to make it, and his attempts to do so will be drowned in derision. The UK seriously needs to take a look at the calibre of the people it is putting forward to represent it and advance its interests internationally.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    So does this have a result for GPS systems in the UK? If so is there a backup or some way to avoid the country's Garmins shrugging their collective shoulders?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,271 ✭✭✭fash


    Isn't GPS the American system and in any case uses non military precision - when what is at issue is unrestricted access to the military precision data?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,215 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    GPS isn't encrypted but this means it is vulnerable to 'spoofing' so it is fine for the likes of personal navigation and Internet of things, but you wouldn't want an airliner or military mission to be relying on this as bad actors could jam or spoof the signal pretty easily

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gps-is-easy-to-hack-and-the-u-s-has-no-backup/

    One of the main benefits of Galileo is that it has an encrypted version that is more secure and less vulnerable. The other is that global navigation and time keeping are critical infrastructure that you don't want to become locked out of if international relations turn frosty



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,013 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    To be fair, much manufacturing was always going to either disappear, be automated or just relocated to other countries but there was nothing stopping successive governments investing in high tech manufacturing which is still a sector in the UK. I think the fact that the UK lost out on the Intel superconductor plant over Brexit is devastating and it's a disgrace that Johnson has not been called out for it.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,990 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I don't think there's any danger of this. The UK's withdrawal from Galileo means that the UK will have very limited - or zero - involvement in designing, consructing, owning, operating the Galileo service. But they can use it as a customer just like anyone else.

    But . . .

    Part of the Galileo service - the encrypted part designed to guide missiles and plan military operations - only offiers limited availability to regular customers; full availability is offered just to the defence, security and emergency response services of member states. Which, of course, no longer includes the UK. The rival service, the US-operated GPS, also has an encrypted part to which the UK only has restricted access.

    The UK's response to that was going to be "we'll build our own!". In 2018 they announced that they would develop and implement a free-standing UK " Global Navigation Satellite System" (GNSS). This was seen at the time as "bold and expensive"; the total cost was projected to be between £3 billion and £5 billion. To kick off, they awarded £90 million worth of contracts for studies of the satellite and ground system technologies needed to develop an independent service, and to procure some parts of the system, and spent £400 million buying a 45% stake in the (bankrupt) OneWeb satellite company and its network of low earth orbit satellites.

    But it was not to be. Citing pressure on public finances resulting from the Coronavirus Pandemic (and in no way connected with any alleged adverse economic impact of Brexit, no sir, and if you repeat such a suggestion you'll be hearing from my lawyers) the UK Treasury has now regretfully concluded that the GNSS project is now unaffordable. By an amazing and very fortunate coincidence the UK Department of Defence has, at more or less the same time, realised that the UK doesn't really need its own encrypted satellite navigation capacity after all, and they are going to explore "innovative alternatives" to satellite navigation systems for tracking and guiding their ships, planes, submarines and cruise missiles. They are looking at options which could supplement, rather than replace, the limited encrypted service they can get from Galileo and GPS. They have awarded (this time, much more modest) contracts to identify possibilities that seem deserving of investigation.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,328 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If only Britain could produce another John Harrison, born in the West Riding of Yorkshire. Despite being a Northerner, and a Yorkshire, he solved the most pressing problem of his day - the Longitude Problem - which was equivalent to GPS of today. He was a carpenter who amused himself repairing clocks. He built the first marine chronometer.

    Of course, the Gov bounty for solving the Longitude problem was denied to him, probably because he was a Northerner, but he was eventually recognised.

    Now they have a history of giving away or abandoning their inventions. The code breaking work of Bletchley Park was shredded at the end of WW II, despite it being hugely valuable in the development of computers. The had three different but successful V bombers for delivering their A bombs - all work just stopped and they settled for USA options. All their technical lead in fighter aircraft just frittered away - TSR2 just cancelled, which had a severe impact on the Concorde project - again just abandoned.

    Long history - all explained by a severe problem with balance of payments, dodgy currency, and lack of exports, plus over spending domestically. They were broke. Add in their two party system of feuding politics that could not agree with any national plan to get out of the cycle of boom and bust, and strikes and anti-trade union legislation to combat those strikes. All it needed was sound economic governance accepted by both parties.

    Well, they are where they are. An very expensive aircraft carrier, paid for by the UK, currently in the South China Sea, carrying a detachment of USAF aircraft and USAF pilots and crew - enforcing the British influence in the region. Of course, they are currently picking a fight with a major power in that region - that should help.

    How far they have fallen - a bit like the man who jumped off the Empire State building and was heard to shout as he passed the tenth floor - 'All OK so far!'



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭storker


    Tony Benn called the Falklands War "The last kick of a dying empire" but I'd say that description is more aptly applied to Brexit, which Benn didn't live to see.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,013 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    As an aside, one day in London before the pandemic I made the journey by boat through the Thames to Greenwich Park & the Observatory. I managed to blag a discount as I work in medical research for a university. Honestly, it's the most wonderful day out. I'd only heard about John Harrison from Only Fools & Horses but all of his timepieces and inventions are there and it's just fantastic. I wasn't expecting that at all.

    There's a really good Watches & Timepieces forum on this site if you're interested:


    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,328 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    John Harrison was only mentioned as an example of selective honours given to the worthy, while the rougher part of society were ridiculed unfairly. You could add Alan Turing to that list.

    Adding to the list of British advances being flung aside, it would include the Harrier jump jet that could be considered to add the flexibility of the helicopter with the capability of a fighter aircraft. The British knew the value of the Spitfire, but not the Harrier. They also had the English Electric Lightening, which could take off and immediately climb vertically at the speed of sound. Unfortunately its reliability left a lot to be desired, plus its ability to fly at subsonic speeds meant its range was severely limited. At the time it was deployed, the Russian Bear bombers were all subsonic, and they left the lightening with a large problem trying to shadow them over the North Sea.

    Still, it will be a while before the current Gov can fund any real advances in science.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,013 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't think it's just about funding. Modern technology is much more intricate and complex than before and is only going to get more so as AI advances. Innovation is now about solving global problems so erecting trade barriers and embracing xenophobic nationalism just mean that talent and investment may just go elsewhere.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,902 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Case in point, the recent Covid vaccine effort. I thought I saw somewhere that nearly 100 countries were involved



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭yagan


    Mostly it's because it was going broke with the loss of Empire.

    After WWII half the Royal Navy's fuel came from Iran alone, so as such places fought for more return for their assets Britain had to reign in its spending. Suez was confirmation that the nation could no longer afford its fantasies.

    All the way through the ruling class preserved their wealth whilst detracting blame on others like immigrants, communists, women etc...



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,328 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It is not just about funding. It is about talent, and the climate for turning talent into innovation.

    Brexit robs the UK of much that is needed for a Silicon Valley type business structure. The proposers of Brexit look not for Silicon Valley as their example, but Singapore on Thames. A type of economy built on arbitrage and disaster capitalism.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,993 ✭✭✭ambro25


    These retaliatory measures are now set to start next Tuesday, 02 November, unless the UK grants the balance of fishing licenses to which it agreed contractually by that deadline.

    This is not a good development: the timescale looks too tight for Johnson & Frost to manoeuvre this away by the deadline and, as France just seized a ‘British’ fishing trawler operating in its waters without a license today, they don’t have a quiet room to do that manoeuvring either.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,328 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think Johnson's oven ready turkey is coming home in time for Christmas. This will unseat the NI Protocol as the No. 1 issue facing the Brexit cabal in his cabinet.

    As has been pointed out for some time, the NI Protocol will be played out in France, with Dover getting a bit part or should that be a bitter part.

    Of course fish is a big issue, coupled with electricity, which is rising in the contention stakes.

    Next year is election time for Macron.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    The OBR, a financial advisory board to the UK government, said yesterday that the long term effect of Brexit will be far worse than the impact of Covid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,950 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Goodness knows how historians will assess Brexit. Arguably much worse than the Suez Crisis (or the self inflicted Irish financial crash of 2008-12). They've almost certainly voted to hobble themselves and all on the back of something as ridiculous as an advisory referendum of dubious legal standing.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,328 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well, there was no (dubious or otherwise) referendum on the Suez expedition. There were few referendums in UK history. They do not believe in asking the people. They are quite happy (well the victors are) to have a ruling Gov formed by a single party with less than 45% of the popular vote - but not just occasionally but every time - since 1932.

    Their belief in democracy is deep - but misplaced.



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