Heavyweight Boxing

walshb · 24-10-2021 7:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068216#Comment_118068216

Lewis was no way ready to continue v McCall. The ref was holding him up. He was banjoed!

McCall fight was not off night. It was early in fight and he got knocked out by one shot.

v Rahman he was a wee bit too casual and got clean knocked out.

squinn2912 · 24-10-2021 10:46pm

I think he was in better shape than both wilder and fury the other week ill

look again though. Anyway it shouldn’t be used in a peak Tyson argument. Against Rachman he turned up worse than Tyson vs bd. I can’t believe you want to use it as evidence for your argument

squinn2912 · 25-10-2021 1:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068266#Comment_118068266

Watched it again. I totally disagree as a champion he should have got the chance to fight on. Up at 2 counted out at 4 with his gloves up? You’re not serious!!

in any event to use it as evidence to say Tyson beats him prime vs prime is mental

walshb · 25-10-2021 8:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118069441#Comment_118069441

I simply said it’s difficult to overlook the two times he was knocked out/stopped by one punch shots. Why is it mental to consider this, and to think a prime Tyson could do the trick with one shot? Isn’t that what is done when assessing fantasy fights, strengths/weaknesses/vulnerabilities/performances?

in 1994 Lewis was at or near prime..

and sorry, he was all over the place. No idea what you were watching. Up at 2/3 and very wobbly and unsteady on legs. The ref was bang on. Him being a champion should have nothing to do with it. Referees are there to ensure the safety of the fighters.

had the referee allowed Lewis continue and McCall whacked him hard again to finish it, and Lewis suffered serious injury, or worse, you’d have folks slating the referee for allowing Lewis continue.

yourdeadwright · 26-10-2021 11:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118068266#Comment_118068266

Lewis got extremely lucky in the Briggs fight , In the first round 5 to 10- seconds more & it would have been another loss on his record,

walshb · 26-10-2021 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118073943#Comment_118073943

What you think of referee's call in the McCall fight? I am surprised squinn thinks my take is way off

I can understand an argument being made, but I think majority folks would have called the referee correct to not allow Lewis continue. He was very shaky.

yourdeadwright · 26-10-2021 11:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074048#Comment_118074048

As far as i remember he was swaying on his feet and out of it, If i remember correctly didn't his knees buckle just as the ref waved it,

Also didn't Lewis have his back to the camera when it was stopped . the ref was looking straight in his eyes ,

A good stoppage in my opinion ,

US2 · 26-10-2021 12:12pm

Hour long interview with Joshua at 6pm tonight on IFL YouTube page.

reclose · 26-10-2021 12:15pm

I decided to watch some of Tyson’s fights from the mid 90s yesterday.

I'm very surprised there is any debate that he was past his best at that point.

He seemed very static. Very little upper body movement and just lunged in with power shots.

Maybe the opposition was tougher but his style definitely took a turn for the worst.

squinn2912 · 26-10-2021 12:24pm

Right I looked again and again. The knee did dip alright but I still think he should’ve had the chance to fight on he wanted to and had the hands up. He always maintained he was fit to continue himself even if arrogance had a part to play there.

this was before manny trained him too and as the 90s wore on he became harder and harder to beat.

in the rematch I think mccaul could’ve caused him problems had he fought him

walshb · 26-10-2021 12:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074210#Comment_118074210

Yes, exactly what I saw...and it was nothing to do with opposition

Bruno in 1995 was not as good as Bruno in 1989, and in 1995 I saw a less than prime Tyson. The chap was still very good, but visually you could see he was not as sharp. fast, explosive. He just wasn't. He was 29 at this stage (not old), but had been inactive due to being incarcerated for over three years.

Holyfield was his opposition for back to back losses. A clearly past his best Holyfield. A Holyfield that was knocked out in Bowe 3, and had lost to Michael freaking Moorer!!!! So opposition isn't really a factor here.

I find it very odd that people would even try to say that mid 90s Tyson was as good as the 1980s championship Tyson. He was clearly not.

walshb · 26-10-2021 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074264#Comment_118074264

He did improve in my view after McCall, but you still need to consider the manner of his losses for a Tyson fantasy fight, same way you would consider the manner of Tyson's losses vs Douglas and Holyfield.

This is where debate can be fun and interesting, because in this instance, Tyson's manner of loss is not as damaging/detrimental

Tyson lost to Douglas after 10 solid and consistent offensive rds from Douglas. He was beat down eventually to be dropped and counted out. This lends well to Tyson when factoring in how Lewis can beat Tyson. It's fair to deduce that to beat Tyson, you need to beat him up and outpoint or stop him. He takes a great shot!!! In Holyfield 1 he was beat down for 9-10 rds, and still on his feet at the stoppage

Where it is more damaging to Lewis is that Lewis was twice stopped with one single shot scenarios. Fight ending split seconds. That's why you have to factor it in, and logically deduce that a peak Tyson could well get to land these type shots to close the show, and even land them when he himself could be in trouble.

Both Lewis KO losses were at different times in his career, so he can be hit/badly hurt no mater when it is.

btw, I am not overly confident that Tyson beats Lewis. I am only 60-40, and I gave my reasons why I think he does, and it's perfectly logical to use power/chin here. Both men had game changing power, but for me, Tyson had the better chin. Tyson stands a clearer chance to end it with one shot than Lewis.

walshb · 26-10-2021 4:52pm

I see Ricky Fatton has encouraged AJ to keep Rob in his training camp, and that the key was to go grab the effing fight by the balls. I have to say, I agree with the second part.

In other words, Fatton, like me, saw AJ fighting scared....

squinn2912 · 26-10-2021 8:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118074377#Comment_118074377

He turned up all over the place against Rachman he wasn’t at all focussed. If he were fighting a peak Tyson then he would be razor sharp. The McCaul I night Tyson would have beaten but the Rachman II fight I really don’t think so. That jab was incredible maybe the best there has ever been. The big right cross. If Tyson has to eat 2 or 3 of those then even he with this superchin isn’t going to stay up. He was a far harder hitter than Holyfield too.

I do like how you have dissected the whole point though and I was a bit dismissive of it earlier, I’ll climb down from that. I’d be screaming for Tyson but I’d expect Lewis. If they fought a trilogy then I wouldn’t be surprised at all with a one each and decider going to points. The Tyson KO would have been incredible.

I’d say I’m about 65-35 on it. I can’t stand Lewis as I take great pains to express but he always found a way to spoil things for me. I’ll never forget two live fights I saw on tv - McCaul II (reminded me of Aidan O’Shea in an All Ireland Final) I was distraught. I remember my dad saying before the fight it just depends on what frame of mind McCaul is in. I, a child, said surely he will be in a good frame of mind for this fight. My dad said you just wouldn’t know that. Then the second round happened and then the rest. What a mess. That and the first Rachman fight, haha I was in jubilant form that night.

BAck to the point at hand. Lewis would do very well to keep Tyson off him. The body attack would be killer. It took a good (not great) Lewis 8 rounds to beat a finished Tyson - lots in there for your point. But Lewis fought plenty of good fighters who weren’t able to get that ko shot in. He only lost twice and avenged both. We aren’t as far apart on this as it seemed a couple of days ago haha

squinn2912 · 26-10-2021 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118075849#Comment_118075849

Love the nickname, love the post, agree with your stance on the second point but I don’t see any compelling argument to keep McCracken

walshb · 26-10-2021 8:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076782#Comment_118076782

Maybe just for humanity/friendship and feeling. It all can play a part and affect people. Rob and AJ are likely more than just strictly trainer/boxer..

walshb · 26-10-2021 8:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076776#Comment_118076776

Definitely on similar pages here. And as I said, Lewis is better than any championship Tyson opponent win, so no real surprise if the mid to later 90s Lewis can win. I still reckon it’s likely points for Lewis or KO for Tyson. I think Rooney prepared Tyson is a ridiculously difficult fighter to KO/stop

yourdeadwright · 26-10-2021 8:41pm

AJ interview with Kugan just shows he's all over the shop

The learning all done now its war, 5 minutes later im off to the US to learn from new coaches i never stop learning

I dont make excuses, i learned after the Ruiz fight certain things happened to make me lose but I wont say what,

He doesn't know what the game plan was for the Usyk fight ud have to ask my team.. .. WTF

The rest is fortunate cookie qoutes

Littlehorny · 26-10-2021 9:31pm

Talking of 80s and 90s fighters lately, does anyone else think that Joshua has become Frank Bruno mark 2?

Since the Ruiz fight he has looked so stiff and tentative, he really has regressed as a fighter. He had been hit hard before and was even knocked down by Klitchko but it seems being stopped has taken all the fight and nastiness out of him.

For all his sound bite talk I think his mental state or ego has been burst.

walshb · 26-10-2021 9:38pm

Well, I for one can’t wait for the rematch. Hope to god AJ at least puts in an actual HW committed effort, as opposed to fooking tip tapping for 12 rds. Should make for a far better fight, as well as showing us what Usyk is truly made of at HW.

reclose · 26-10-2021 10:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077258#Comment_118077258

I’ve been watching alot of 90s fights the past few days and I definitely thought to myself that Bruno reminded me of AJ.

squinn2912 · 26-10-2021 11:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076836#Comment_118076836

Hmm had another look through Lewis’ cv. I remember him commentating on the Rachman Wlad fight (insufferably arrogant) and he talked about his vs Wlad’s power with the other commentator. He reckoned that he had concussive one punch power whereas Wlad wore down opponents. I’m struggling to remember many fights where we saw this one punch clean out. What comes to mind is Golota, Rachman, Botha, Grant… Add away. Grant did get up alright and I think got hit well after the bell.

That said the man hit very, very hard. Could Tyson take that kind of power well into the fight?

Early 90s I think Tyson is a clear winner and favourite. Late 90s Lewis is a tough proposition for even Tyson’s best night.

squinn2912 · 26-10-2021 11:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077258#Comment_118077258

Listening to it now. First thought was that he’s had a confidence crisis. Load of nonsense. This talk of hitting Usyk to the hip etc sounds a bit desperate.

Talking about being a sponge for information and then struggling with the concept of a unanimous decision. Doesn;t know what the game plan was.

Then the it’s just war bit.. Jesus is he taking lessons from wilder on public speaking?

The british talk is nauseating. People giving him hate for winning vs losing. He lost against top level opponents and looked bad doing so. The wins were against cans like Charles Martin.

All in all a poor showing.

In the rematch he can win. He will need in my opinion to risk emptying the tank. Usyk might just be that good that he can keep out of the way. Joshua to win will have to react calmly to getting hit and he’s not been good at that no matter what he says about this amazing spirit of his.

iebamm2580 · 27-10-2021 7:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077865#Comment_118077865

Aj is actually thicker then i thought, wtf does studying boxing iq mean, couldn't do simple maths then claimed he was thinking about 2022 thats why he couldn't add up 2011-2021 being 10 years. Hes better off not doing interviews. As whyte said hes strange guy.

squinn2912 · 27-10-2021 8:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078211#Comment_118078211

Yup that interview was an absolute car wreck. He’s made a fool out of himself. He looked scruffy and unrested too. Any time he talked about boxing as opposed to fighting he sounded like he hadnt a clue. When he was saying unless he changed things up he wouldn’t have a brain cell left I was thinking he perhaps realised this too late!

yourdeadwright · 27-10-2021 9:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118078379#Comment_118078379

His eyes looked banged up ,like he'd been sparing ,

He couldn't even work out 2011 was 10 years ago ,

Hearn & Match room built up persona to hide his lack of personality & its like now he actually believes that is the real him, He contradicts himself one sentence to the next because he is always trying to say something that sounds good or wise,

AJ v Wilder would be gas Fortune cookie quotes against the 80's high school movie bad guy quotes,

walshb · 27-10-2021 1:15pm

Leave it out, lads....chap is still trying to figure out the sport!

walshb · 27-10-2021 1:18pm

Joyce and Dubois being thrown around as potential next fights for Fury.....

Dubois next to no chance. At least Joyce will bring some forward pressure.

squinn2912 · 27-10-2021 1:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118079850#Comment_118079850

I haven’t heard Dubois named but he’d be a fool to take the fight from a boxing point of view. Joyce would make for an interesting fight but too slow. I can’t stop thinking about the Lewis right cross for him. I think he’d be the worst possible fantasy match up for Joyce.

reclose · 27-10-2021 2:27pm

did anyone see the end of the AJ interview when he tried to become some sort of bad man?

Heavyweight Boxing

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