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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,092 ✭✭✭ roosterman71

    A lot to digest there on that unrelated-to-the-thread post. Anyway:

    1) Their fault? As in they farm the system that suits their land in most cases, aided and supported by the government and the agri advising/researching organisations

    2) How much does Irish beef/dairy capture? Remember, animal methane is part of the biogenic cycle. It's not new GHGs. It's releasing that which is held in the crop, all the while helping sequester carbon by the growing of the crop. Lots of research being done to try add things to feed to help reduce it. Still much better to produce local than import processed stuff from south america or wherever

    3) Why wouldn't you want one of the biggest exporters of product to survive? Why wouldn't you want one of the biggest employers to survive (both direct and indirect)? Why wouldn't you want rural areas to be sustainable in some fashion?

    4) How is it wasteful and unsustainable? There are issues around water quality that is being addressed. Nevertheless, our water quality is #2 in the EU and we strive to improve. (now I tie into the UK and Brexit!) We don't allow raw sewage be horsed into our waterways, yet councils and local authorities do it and a blind eye is often turned to it as "the money isn't there to fix it" line is peddled out. Yet agriculture is expected to spend huge sums to store and process animal manure or face serious consequences. Playing field != level :-) Oh, and sheep farming is no golden ticket. If it were, there'd be much more in that line of agri than there is.

    Finally, we could certainly learn from the Dutch

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sam Russell

    Brexit will force a change that should happen anyway.

    Beef production is sustainable but not the way it is run now by the smaller suckler herds.

    1. They seed with rye grass that needs nitrogen fertilizer, while other clover based swards do not need additional fertilizer saving money.
    2. The part-time element do not run the herds efficiently, and tend to not be careful of the breeding. The whole part-time approach does not maximise buying or selling.
    3. The meat factories manipulate the market depressing the prices when it suits them.
    4. The prime grass fed beef produced here is sold at commodity prices into the UK.
    5. Farmers need to go organic, even if they do not get a premium because they should be able to have lower inputs.
    6. The elderly bachelor farmers, who probably find the work load too much and should be incentivised to quit - by renting or selling their holding.

    Farmers should run a set of polytunnels to provide an extra source of income - either vegetables or fruit or both. Plus they should be trying to become self sufficient in energy - either solar, wind or biogas from a digester.

    Obviously not every farmer can go down this route, but many should.

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 87,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight

    The Express has this Brexit triumph: Truss does it again as UK signs trade and security deal with Greece

    It's a Memorandum of Understanding / a cooperation framework. Not sure how much involves trade because there's the whole Common Market. The Greeks look to be treating it more as a security deal re Cyprus , Balkans and the Law Of The Sea ie. Turkey

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭ Brussels Sprout

    Your second point is misleading. The carbon that gets belched into the air as part of that cycle may not be new carbon but it has been transformed by the entire process from Carbon Dioxide into Methane. Methane is between 25-80 times more damaging in terms of it's greenhouse Gas ability than Carbon Dioxide. So while the argument can be made that dairy and beef farming are "carbon" neutral they are still contributing greatly to climate change (and that's before you look at the effects of fertiliser, effluents, the overuse of anti-biotics in cattle in this country and the utility cost of all of that pasture land).

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,092 ✭✭✭ roosterman71

    And methane is short lived. The rise in methane in the atmosphere eerily matches increased fracking. Correlation doesn't mean causation, buit it's still a mad coincidence.

    Natural fertiliser is being curtailed and N is already limited. Further restrictions coming and the promotion of clover (only really relevant in ideal growing conditions from June/July on) and MSS will help. The mad prices of fertiliser currently and predicted for next year will speed up a welcome transition from artificial compounds. Good news. However, soil still needs nutrients and animal/organic manures are actually great for the soil, especially to regulate P & K levels. Reduced animal numbers, and diverting this waste to digesters isn't going to help soil which we need to grow whatever we put in. Farming is highly regulated and there are things in place for effluent and waste. Rightly so again. And those that don't comply should be hauled before whatever system is in place for them to be punished. Antibiotics are not overused in Ireland. Again, very strict regulations around them.

    For more farming talk, head on over to the Farming & Forestry section. Tis great craic and we can leave this thread to it's intended purposes - scratching our heads as to what the UK are at

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,882 ✭✭✭ fly_agaric

    An interesting subject alright even if it has nothing (much) to do with Brexit...

    One thing I don't believe was touched on. Farming beef is very bad but (I think) on a global scale Ireland may be one of the better (less damaging) places to do it...

    Unless the likes of the EU countries and the UK also make sure they are really eliminating local beef consumption (due to its high environmental cost) and not just replacing all that EU (incl. Irish) beef with some South American or USA imports, trying to get rid of the beef industry in EU/Ireland seems pointless and may even have a worse environmental outcome.

    I wonder do politicians and policy makers have courage to say we are just not supporting that kind of (mass) beef farming any more (in fact we may punish it) and we also will restrict imports or turn it into a premium/very high cost luxury food (because people just should not eat it day to day any more)?

    Like alot of issues around climate change, I see no sign politicians have the courage to make such decisions, or enough of the public have the will to make the sacrifice (i.e. won't turn around and give the bum's rush to those like the Greens who might dare impose such things on them). 

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 29,038 CMod ✭✭✭✭ ancapailldorcha

    For more farming talk, head on over to the Farming & Forestry section. Tis great craic and we can leave this thread to it's intended purposes - scratching our heads as to what the UK are at.

    Mod: Yes please. Thanks.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,648 ✭✭✭ An Ciarraioch

    Unsurprisingly, UK traffic at Dublin port has fallen over 20% up to September, YoY, while trade with the EU has risen by 36%:

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭ PokeHerKing

    Surely the Italians and Spanish have very similar cultural ethos as those you've listed?

    I've no doubt its part of it but its definitely more to do with past wars/proximity and shared historical links through the monarchs imo.

    Plus the French are just as likely to be antagonists themselves

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,592 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985

    The Italians and Spanish are not seen as "snotty" by people suspectable to falling for stereotypes the way the French are. Probably because these same people think all Spanish and Italian people are poor

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭ yagan

    From my time living in England the most common misconception I encountered there was that many still think themselves as being in a wealthy nation and can't see the signs of decay everywhere.

    The lyrics about crumbling foundations from Paul Brady's song "nothing but the same old story" really struck me more after having lived there.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,592 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985

    I always found it strange that the poor in England never looked further afield the way we do or people from most other parts of Europe do. You do get a fair amount of internal immigrants but I always found it odd that no one from the north or the west country ever talked of leaving the UK for work. It was always leisure or culture emigration.

    Sounds like a weird analogy but up until very recently English soccer players would rather drop 2/3 divisions in England than move abroad and fans always moaned about the lack of English players in the top flight but never thought that their players had equal opportunity to do the same in the rest of Europe

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,216 ✭✭✭ yagan

    And even those that do emigrate don't see themselves as immigrants in another country, they're expats!

    I think the only country they look up to is the USA, even the soccer players consider it the best retirement gig.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Junkyard Tom

    France about to give GB a little starter on what it can expect if a full blown collapse of the TCA results from the NI Protocol.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,428 ✭✭✭✭ Strazdas

    Translation here of what retaliatory measures the French are proposing :

    Not entirely sure why Frost is the one commenting on this. It's not really a Brexit matter, more of a UK-France bilateral dispute (though Brexit is undoubtedly a backdrop).

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,428 ✭✭✭✭ Strazdas

    I get the feeling the pro-Tory propaganda of the press is a big factor in this. They've absolutely no wish to draw attention to how run down many parts of the UK are, or to highlight that GB living standards are behind many parts of western Europe. Instead, purposely give everyone the misleading impression they are well off and and living in one of the richest countries in the world.

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,592 ✭✭✭✭ breezy1985

    Wouldn't be expecting the richest in society to be pointing out inequality to the poorest in fairness

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,428 ✭✭✭✭ Strazdas

    Indeed, tell the plebs how well off they are and how lucky they are to be living in a country like the UK (to do otherwise would mean having to criticise and expose their Tory pals).

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,091 ✭✭✭✭ Junkyard Tom

    It's like a Soviet Vassal's 'department for propaganda' telling its population the potato crop is greater than ever, and the tractor factory has never had higher production rates, while the population face longer queues for food and other essentials.

  • Registered Users Posts: 893 ✭✭✭ green daries

    When you stop and think about England's finest hours in history the last couple of points are quite stark. It really is a shell of what made it great (in their eyes. not so much all the places which were asset stripped)

  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 87,125 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Capt'n Midnight

    Also UK scientists are being “frozen out” of the £80bn EU research programme Horizon Europe because of the ongoing dispute over the Northern Ireland Brexit protocol. Some fishing won't provide world class jobs or stop any brain drain.

    UK is out of Galileo, and lost contracts on Copernicus earth observation satellites. Still hasn't confirmed participation in Copernicus going forward. The big wins for the US in putting a man on the moon were better computers and components, better quality control and project management. It's not just the research, it's the value added.

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