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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Ya I was thinking that. But the point was that it is more cost effective to have NX lamb in the UK over Welsh lamb so surely the same applies to beef



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Since WW II, NZ lamb was imported into Britain frozen, along with NZ (Anchor) butter.

    When the UK joined the EEC, they negotiated to keep a quota for NZ produce - lamb and butter for historical, Commonwealth, cultural, reasons. This was the first of the UK special exceptions to EEC/EU rules.

    Frozen lamb, like frozen fish fingers, never goes out of season, and is cheaper.

    I understand that, currently, NZ wine is cheaper in the UK than in NZ. Isn't International trade funny.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Just surprising it's still cheaper after the shipping cost.

    As for booze things like a bottle of Jameson can be got way cheaper outside Ireland



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    NZ Wine or NZ lamb, it's all cheaper in the UK than it is here in NZ and all the best quality stuff gets exported, to UK or elsewhere. It's such a shame, NZ produces so much excellent quality food but exports it all and the second rate stuff is all we locals get left with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,131 ✭✭✭Widdensushi




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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,792 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    We ate NZ lamb regularly in the US, in NYC in fact, starting in the early 1970's. It was inexpensive compared to 'native' lamb.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    With the cost of sending a shipping container from Asia to Europe gone from 1k to 7k or more, it's a particularly bad time to switch to NZ suppliers instead of EU ones.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,991 ✭✭✭ambro25


    To the surprise of no-one, France announces retaliatory measures against the UK over the ongoing fishing row, with a work-to-rule customs regime on UK imports.




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,267 ✭✭✭fash


    It's a nice time to squeeze - just before Christmas. It will be interesting to see if things escalate that far.



  • Posts: 17,381 [Deleted User]


    The comments on that are a joy to read. Thoroughly recommended.



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    With Frost SNIP. No insults. declaring in Westminster that the UK courts must be sovereign in NI is setting the bar very low for a showdown.

    I can see the EU getting ready for a bloody reply if he invokes Art 16. They can go down the eternal negotiating route, or take the (by now - inevitable) outright trade war. The French appear ready for a soft blockade of the ports. Maybe a bit of air travel inconvenience might be a prod in the right direction, now they are travelling again. Also a bit of tightening of the screw wrt to City trading.

    I think the EU must show that real steel is inside that velvet glove they have been waving about for the last year.

    Post edited by ancapailldorcha on


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    When you are comparing prices, like for whiskey, you should strip off the taxes as they are punitive for booze - certainly here in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,837 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    I notice that the French are the biggest "bête noire" for the Brexiteers. They hate everyone naturally, but France in particular gets most of their ire, way ahead of even the Germans.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,246 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    I think it's simply because France is closest to UK of the major economies as well as the historical wars. French has nuclear weapons, ambitions of being an empire, strong national spirit and pride in "their" country, strong competition in primary sports (football, rugby etc.) and being close physically there's an easy point of friction as well. In short it's a natural candidate to be seen as a "competitor" in multiple different facets of what UK prides themselves in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,341 ✭✭✭McGiver


    No harm here as much as I feel with the farmers. But it's their fault - they put all their eggs into one basket (including lobbying) and it's a particularly lazy agriculture (compared to the Dutch smart one).

    Irish beef (and dairy) industry in produces 35%+ of Irish GHGs (CH4 and N2O especially, very potent GHGs) and there's no sign of improvement bar minor cosmetic changes planned by the government fully supporting this industry (politically philosophically and economically).

    This industry shouldn't (and won't) survive the upcoming economic & energy transformation, in my opinion.

    Beef farming is a particularly poor, wasteful and unsustainable use of land, water and resources. It will need to switch to lamb at least and/or Dutch style smart-veg production.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    A lot to digest there on that unrelated-to-the-thread post. Anyway:

    1) Their fault? As in they farm the system that suits their land in most cases, aided and supported by the government and the agri advising/researching organisations

    2) How much does Irish beef/dairy capture? Remember, animal methane is part of the biogenic cycle. It's not new GHGs. It's releasing that which is held in the crop, all the while helping sequester carbon by the growing of the crop. Lots of research being done to try add things to feed to help reduce it. Still much better to produce local than import processed stuff from south america or wherever

    3) Why wouldn't you want one of the biggest exporters of product to survive? Why wouldn't you want one of the biggest employers to survive (both direct and indirect)? Why wouldn't you want rural areas to be sustainable in some fashion?

    4) How is it wasteful and unsustainable? There are issues around water quality that is being addressed. Nevertheless, our water quality is #2 in the EU and we strive to improve. (now I tie into the UK and Brexit!) We don't allow raw sewage be horsed into our waterways, yet councils and local authorities do it and a blind eye is often turned to it as "the money isn't there to fix it" line is peddled out. Yet agriculture is expected to spend huge sums to store and process animal manure or face serious consequences. Playing field != level :-) Oh, and sheep farming is no golden ticket. If it were, there'd be much more in that line of agri than there is.

    Finally, we could certainly learn from the Dutch



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Brexit will force a change that should happen anyway.

    Beef production is sustainable but not the way it is run now by the smaller suckler herds.

    1. They seed with rye grass that needs nitrogen fertilizer, while other clover based swards do not need additional fertilizer saving money.
    2. The part-time element do not run the herds efficiently, and tend to not be careful of the breeding. The whole part-time approach does not maximise buying or selling.
    3. The meat factories manipulate the market depressing the prices when it suits them.
    4. The prime grass fed beef produced here is sold at commodity prices into the UK.
    5. Farmers need to go organic, even if they do not get a premium because they should be able to have lower inputs.
    6. The elderly bachelor farmers, who probably find the work load too much and should be incentivised to quit - by renting or selling their holding.

    Farmers should run a set of polytunnels to provide an extra source of income - either vegetables or fruit or both. Plus they should be trying to become self sufficient in energy - either solar, wind or biogas from a digester.

    Obviously not every farmer can go down this route, but many should.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,537 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    The Express has this Brexit triumph: Truss does it again as UK signs trade and security deal with Greece

    It's a Memorandum of Understanding / a cooperation framework. Not sure how much involves trade because there's the whole Common Market. The Greeks look to be treating it more as a security deal re Cyprus , Balkans and the Law Of The Sea ie. Turkey



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭swampgas


    And possibly the fact that the French revolted against the crown, and decapitated their monarch and much of the aristocracy, unsettles the old families which hold land in the UK since the time of William the Conquerer. A terrible example to the commoners of how to treat their betters!



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,370 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Your second point is misleading. The carbon that gets belched into the air as part of that cycle may not be new carbon but it has been transformed by the entire process from Carbon Dioxide into Methane. Methane is between 25-80 times more damaging in terms of it's greenhouse Gas ability than Carbon Dioxide. So while the argument can be made that dairy and beef farming are "carbon" neutral they are still contributing greatly to climate change (and that's before you look at the effects of fertiliser, effluents, the overuse of anti-biotics in cattle in this country and the utility cost of all of that pasture land).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Nah it's mostly about the inferiority complex some people have towards culture.

    You see it here too but it's worse in the UK where people visibly angry at people who want to live a life outside of the same cheap tasteless beer every evening and pasties or fry ups every day for lunch.

    The stereotype French lifestyle of espressos and bicycles is the ultimate image of everything their sad lives are not



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,268 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    And methane is short lived. The rise in methane in the atmosphere eerily matches increased fracking. Correlation doesn't mean causation, buit it's still a mad coincidence.

    Natural fertiliser is being curtailed and N is already limited. Further restrictions coming and the promotion of clover (only really relevant in ideal growing conditions from June/July on) and MSS will help. The mad prices of fertiliser currently and predicted for next year will speed up a welcome transition from artificial compounds. Good news. However, soil still needs nutrients and animal/organic manures are actually great for the soil, especially to regulate P & K levels. Reduced animal numbers, and diverting this waste to digesters isn't going to help soil which we need to grow whatever we put in. Farming is highly regulated and there are things in place for effluent and waste. Rightly so again. And those that don't comply should be hauled before whatever system is in place for them to be punished. Antibiotics are not overused in Ireland. Again, very strict regulations around them.

    For more farming talk, head on over to the Farming & Forestry section. Tis great craic and we can leave this thread to it's intended purposes - scratching our heads as to what the UK are at



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,755 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    An interesting subject alright even if it has nothing (much) to do with Brexit...

    One thing I don't believe was touched on. Farming beef is very bad but (I think) on a global scale Ireland may be one of the better (less damaging) places to do it...

    Unless the likes of the EU countries and the UK also make sure they are really eliminating local beef consumption (due to its high environmental cost) and not just replacing all that EU (incl. Irish) beef with some South American or USA imports, trying to get rid of the beef industry in EU/Ireland seems pointless and may even have a worse environmental outcome.

    I wonder do politicians and policy makers have courage to say we are just not supporting that kind of (mass) beef farming any more (in fact we may punish it) and we also will restrict imports or turn it into a premium/very high cost luxury food (because people just should not eat it day to day any more)?

    Like alot of issues around climate change, I see no sign politicians have the courage to make such decisions, or enough of the public have the will to make the sacrifice (i.e. won't turn around and give the bum's rush to those like the Greens who might dare impose such things on them). 



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 36,787 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    For more farming talk, head on over to the Farming & Forestry section. Tis great craic and we can leave this thread to it's intended purposes - scratching our heads as to what the UK are at.

    Mod: Yes please. Thanks.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    Unsurprisingly, UK traffic at Dublin port has fallen over 20% up to September, YoY, while trade with the EU has risen by 36%:

    https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1453264458747371526



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,163 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    Surely the Italians and Spanish have very similar cultural ethos as those you've listed?

    I've no doubt its part of it but its definitely more to do with past wars/proximity and shared historical links through the monarchs imo.

    Plus the French are just as likely to be antagonists themselves



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The Italians and Spanish are not seen as "snotty" by people suspectable to falling for stereotypes the way the French are. Probably because these same people think all Spanish and Italian people are poor



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    When it comes to revolting against the monarch, did not the English beat them to it by over a 140 years and show that beheading the King way was the way to go. Having done that, a bit of terror to follow up would go a long way to quiet the natives.

    I think it has more to do with Napoleon and de Gaulle. De Gaulle was treated badly when leader of the Free French in WW II by the British establishment, always left out of decisions, and he never forgave them for it, and they never forgave him, nor the French, for never forgiving them by not allowing them joining the EEC, not once, but twice.

    Of course, it could be just that the French eat snails, foie gra and frogs legs, and do not like warm beer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,406 ✭✭✭yagan


    From my time living in England the most common misconception I encountered there was that many still think themselves as being in a wealthy nation and can't see the signs of decay everywhere.

    The lyrics about crumbling foundations from Paul Brady's song "nothing but the same old story" really struck me more after having lived there.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,017 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I always found it strange that the poor in England never looked further afield the way we do or people from most other parts of Europe do. You do get a fair amount of internal immigrants but I always found it odd that no one from the north or the west country ever talked of leaving the UK for work. It was always leisure or culture emigration.

    Sounds like a weird analogy but up until very recently English soccer players would rather drop 2/3 divisions in England than move abroad and fans always moaned about the lack of English players in the top flight but never thought that their players had equal opportunity to do the same in the rest of Europe



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