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Heavyweight Boxing

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,458 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    Really hate the talk of what "he could have been " He is who he is & it wasn't good enough to keep him at the top,

    The mental side of the game is the bigger part & he couldn't keep it together,

    Crazy if you think about it but Fury probably done more damage to himself & chances at boxing in his 2 year bender of drink & drugs than Mikes prison sentence did to him & it was Fury who came back stronger , i realise having different skill sets is a massive reason for that

    Another mad one is in Mike's last fight before Prison he was the same age as AJ was making his professional debut



  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Yep. Tyson achieved a ridiculous amount pre prison. By 20/21 he was undisputed and lineal HW champion…

    Post prison was not near as successful, of course, but still won a version or two of the championship, and was still top rated.

    Had Tyson retired after beating Carl Williams he would have achieved a lot more than many historical HW champions. 10-0 as champion, and about 37-0 overall.

    Definitely does enough to make my top ten ever HWs..

    and prime for prime, he is right near the top in fantasy matches.

    I’d probably lean with a prime Vitali/Bowe as his toughest tests.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,654 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    Just in your comment that the heavyweight division was in the bin back then, I'd say it's worse now. When Whyte is top five and Chisora top ten it's pretty bad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭ squinn2912


    Don’t like to say it but any version of Lewis also would give him his fill of it.

    Ali I rate higher in the fantasy fight.

    Prime Holmes for sure considering an absolutely finished one gave him a good go for 4 rounds when he was a wrecking ball.

    mention for both Johnson and Louis as well. Very small hws by today’s standards but humans have expanded and evolved.

    not saying all these guys beat him but def test him. And Ike, what a fight that would have been. Reckon Tyson takes him but don’t blink. He had trouble with Byrd but he was a slippery customer and ended up wiping him out



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,873 ✭✭✭ The Nal


    This is true yeah. Was bad post Holmes though. Tony Tubbs a top 5. Tyrell Biggs top 10 etc.

    Its all been sh1t since Holyfield/Tyson/Lewis lets face it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭ nj27


    I think Tyson might have had a decent chance at beating Fury in his prime because his inside fighting was so brutal and effective that Fury might not be able to put his weight on him and wear him down. He could throw a lightning fast combination of uppercuts and hooks to the body before Fury could manage to get into a clinch. I'd actually like to see Whyte have a go against Fury because he's closer to that style than anyone he has fought so far.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,458 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    The reason id pick Fury is because we have never seen him lose no matter what Fury turns up he finds a way to win ,

    Mike showed us numerous times he can be beat, he can turn up not ready , he can give up , all things we are yet to see form Fury ,

    If you want to watch the highlights of explosive ,vicious heavy weight boxing watch a highlight package of Mike,

    If you want to watch the greatest Heavy weights in action he's a long way down that list,



  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Goes back to what Fury has beaten....he has beaten nobody close to what Mike brings...nobody

    He has beaten a timid old man Wlad and a very ordinary (bar power) Wilder.....

    Tyson will bring heat like nothing Fury has ever seen. He brings a combination of speed/power/aggression that no man has brought to Fury. Not even close.

    Closest was fooking Derek Chisora, who lasted many rds with Fury. Mike Tyson is so superior and so more deadly a puncher than Chisora. Far faster everywhere....

    So saying he has always finds ways to win is not all that applicable here, I feel.

    Fury will probably be spending most the time trying to contain and avoid taking flush shots. Wilder had him badly hurt several times, but never was Wilder able to follow up properly.....hence guys like Tyson and Lewis would be very bad for Fury, because both can really close the show

    Another area: what shots will Fury be hitting a 5 feet 11 bobbing and weaving Tyson with to even discourage him, or beat him with? A jab? A 1-2 and then clinch? Fury will find it very difficult punching downwards so low....more difficult than Mike will find it coming up and under.

    If he lasts 12, which I reckon he does not, then he is probably more spoiling and surviving. Tyson had a very good engine during his Rooney prepared days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Yes, Lewis could very well give prime Tyson issues. I just believe that his chin won't survive. Lewis did not have a glass chin. It was a decent chin, but Mike was so so much better 1986-1988 compared to 2002. Now, Lewis may have been better than 2002, but that's questionable. Lewis in the late 90s and early 2000s was a hulk of a man, and physically stronger than the lighter early 90s version

    Lewis is kind of like Ali for me....his peak was a mix of two timespans. Ali mid to late 60s and early to mid 70s....was stronger and took better shot in the 1970s.......was faster and more elusive in the mid 60s. Lewis was faster in the early 90s, and more aggressive, but stronger and more mature/experienced in the late 90s and early 2000s...

    Problem for Lewis is that during both spans, he was clean knocked out. A prime Tyson will be very dangerous for Lewis....

    Joe Louis: a boxer-puncher at 200 lbs. I happen to think prime Tyson gets him out in a round. Tyson is Joe's worst style match

    1. Joe could be hit
    2. he could be hurt
    3. Tyson comes to kill
    4. won't find Joe difficult to find/hit
    5. Tysons chin better
    6. 20 lbs solid weight heavier

    Clean win for Mike here

    Holmes? Watch their 1988 fight again, Holmes was doing nothing. Few silly flashes on his toes and popping a jab. He was then brutally taken out

    Tyson always a bad match for Holmes. Holmes was not, for me, as wily/durable/resilient as Ali. Larry as down heavy several times from far less overall deadly punchers than Mike. Holmes has nothing on his shots to deter Mike. And Holmes will not avoid heavy leather...he gets knocked out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,873 ✭✭✭ The Nal


    Holmes was nearly 40, fat and retired. He wasnt late 70s/early 80s Holmes.

    Not bashing him (honestly!) but people forget that a lot of prime Tysons fights were against people like Lou Saverse, Brian Nielson, Marvis Frazier, Bruce Seldon, Alfonso Ratliff, Alex Stuart, Peter McNeely. All the people you see on the KO reels.

    Honest question. Who was the best boxer he ever beat? Spinks? Bruno?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,440 ✭✭✭✭ Mantis Toboggan


    A fit Fury at 280 pounds with big reach and height advantage is a nightmare for Tyson imo.


    IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN: "In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom"

    Irish Proclamation



  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    But just trotting out his height and weight....what does this mean?

    What exactly is he doing to win the fight? How does he fight/box a far shorter man who has an excellent chin, very good defense, a swarming pressure game, excellent speed/power, excellent punch variation, and excellent finishing ability?

    What shots/punches/strategy can you see Fury use/employ to beat the far shorter forward pressing Tyson?



  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    You could ask same question of many HWs? Who were the best they beat? They beat who was in their era at the time

    You are fixated on wanting to portray Tyson's first reign as being against bums, which is ridiculous, and inaccurate..

    Who at HW was so great that Holmes beat? Louis? Liston? Dempsey? Tunney?

    They beat who was in front of them, and lost to what was in front of them



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,458 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    Or maybe the Tyson that fought Douglas shows up & gets beat easy,

    Or maybe the Tyson who couldn't deal with Lennox's jab shows up, the one that only landed 15 % of his own jabs 7 couldn't get close enough to work before being stopped

    or maybe the Tyson that fought Holyfield first & only won 2 rounds (3 at a push) before being stopped

    Or maybe the Tyson that fought Holyfield the second time & didn't win a single round shows up

    Fury beats Mike because of his jab, he keep Mike at bay , pbviously his length & size help on route to a late stoppage,

    Mike has a history of folding Fury does not ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,458 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    Mike was the younger man when he fought Lewis and got demolished ,

    Lennox beats him 9 out of 10 times ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,458 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    Talking about Prime Mike Tyson and dismissing his losses to Douglas, Lewis ,Holyfield and so on is crazy ,

    I'll give you an example

    You pick "Prime Tyson " to beat anyone because he was a wrecking machine, ,

    I say he wouldn't beat "Prime Wilder" because he just needs to touch you with his right hand & its lights out & Tyson got hit ,

    So who's right ?

    It's just a load of nonsense really ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,873 ✭✭✭ The Nal


    Well of the people Tyson is allegedly in contention with (ie top 10 ever)

    Holmes beat Norton, Shavers and loads of the people Tyson beat. Williams, Smith, Witherspoon, Marvis.

    Ali beat Liston, Patterson, Williams, Foreman, Frazier, Norton.

    Foreman beat Frazier, Norton, Lyle.

    Lewis beat Tyson, Holyfield, Klitschko.

    Holyfield beat Tyson twice, Foreman and all the others Tyson beat.

    Frazier beat Ali.

    Tyson beat..... Bruno?

    Its a genuine question. And the only way to judge greatness. The fantasy stuff is just that.

    Which greats of his era did he beat? Theres usually only 2 or 3 by the way in any era. But he lost to both of them. Apart from Naseem, still my favourite fighter ever to watch mind you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,458 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    He beat Holmes( who's on your list) & Spinks ,

    There his two biggest name wins,

    But of course Holmes was out of retirement and finished & Spinks was a LHW & way to small for the division but on paper they are the two "greats" he beat



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,440 ✭✭✭✭ Mantis Toboggan


    The obvious strategy for Fury would be to get behind that jab all night and use that 14 inch reach advantage. Even if Mike did catch Fury and put him down I'd have full faith that he'll get up and still win. Mike's only hope would be to end it early, longer it goes on Fury with lean on him, wrestle him, slow him down and probably get a late stoppage.

    He could also win going on the offensive, take the centre of the ring and get tyson fighting on the back foot. He'd look for those clubbing right hands to the ear, lots of 1-2's and clinch, wear him down. Bit riskier but likely to end in a quicker stoppage.


    IRISHMEN AND IRISHWOMEN: "In the name of God and of the dead generations from which she receives her old tradition of nationhood, Ireland, through us, summons her children to her flag and strikes for her freedom"

    Irish Proclamation



  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Using this single criteria here, age, is ridiculous....

    Tyson was shot to bits in 2002.....it shouldn't need to be pointed out....

    It's prime vs prime.....for me, Tysin wins 8-10.....their actual fight in 2002 is of no use whatsoever to judge prime vs prime.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Norton and Shavers were not near great, despite Norton beating Ali...

    Some the names you mention were every bit as weak as you want to make Mike's opponents to be.

    They beat who was in their era....Tyson's 10 wins up to 1990 Douglas was every bit as decent as some the names on Holmes' ledger

    Foreman lost to Jimmy Young for chrissake Norton he knocked out. Big deal. So did Cooney...even quicker I believe.

    Your selecting Mike's wins and trying to lambast his opposition, while trying to not lambast others is way off....they all beat and lost to names that were in their time.

    Holmes, lost to fooking Spinks......a man Mike pulverized in one round, yet what happens? Yes, Mike's detractors slag Spinks as being too small...this is the kind of logic that gets thrown around

    And on Floyd Patterson: One of, if not the weakest HW champions ever. I'd back all Tyson's opponent he beat during his 1986-1989 reign to KO Patterson. Liston is 2-2 in championship bouts. Both wins vs. Patterson..



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,458 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    That nobody but Mikes fault ,

    What year is prime Mike ? Is it before Douglas when he never really fought anyone of note or after Douglas when the best guy he fought was Ruddock who went 12 rounds & was never up to much himself lost to every top 10 fighter he ever faced ,

    What year is Prime Mike ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Not sure what that means about it being Mike's fault.....whatever age he was, in 2002 vs Lewis he was clearly shot to bits.....

    Why are you asking me what year was prime Mike?

    You know the year(s) I gave, and what most educated boxing fans would give

    What year(s) would you say were when Tyson was at his best, or really close to it?

    All boxers have prime ages/years etc.....Tyson is no different.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,458 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    You can't seriously think Spinks was a serious heavy weight ?

    he weight a career high of 212lbs v Tyson & that was him bulked up ,

    Didn't he fight in the Olympics as a middle weight ?

    Wasn't there rumour he as afraid to leave the dressing room to fight Mike, He only moved to heavy weight because he fancied his chance at beating Holmes which did just about, .,



  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    I always knew Tyson would KO Spinks. Most picked him to. Where did I say that I thought he was a serious heavyweight?

    Fact is that he was the lineal champion, as he beat Holmes twice. So let's not pretend he was a nobody.

    My Spinks point was clear, if you read it. Holmes lost to Spinks twice, and you won't hear too much criticism, yet Tyson pulverizes Spinks in 90 seconds and it gets dismissed as Spinks being too small. Despite being 6-7 lbs lighter than Mike...

    I am not arguing Spinks as a great HW. I am simply pointing out the bias/logic that people use to harshly assess and criticize Tyson's opposition



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,458 ✭✭✭✭ yourdeadwright


    Says more about that version of Holmes than Spinks

    Spinks weighed 200 lbs for that fight just 14 stone for contrast Usyk was just under 16 tone for the AJ fight 7 seen as small ,

    Hey may have been 7lb lighter but he was completely blow up & never carried near that weigh in a ring before,

    For that to be your best win says it all ,

    What year is prime Mike



  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Again, where did I say it was Tyson's best win?

    And, why are you asking me for Mike's prime, again?!

    I already said what I believe to be his prime...it is the years 1986-1988/1989....any one these calendar years I think he was at his best.

    Having to pick one year where Tsyon looked to me to at his fighting best? 1988.....1987 a close second.

    You have not said what you believe to be his prime year(s) where he was at his fighting best...

    Post edited by walshb on


  • Registered Users Posts: 48,414 ✭✭✭✭ walshb


    Wilder just needs to touch Tyson now with his right hand and it’s lights out? This is absurd..

    does Mike also need to just touch Wilder with the right hand, right hook, left hook, right uppercut and it’s lights out?

    two things: Tyson has a rock solid chin for single absorption. And he had quite a good defense. Wilder hasn’t even got an uppercut to use against the shorter Tyson

    Wilder has nothing to compete with Tyson.

    Ok, meet you half way. Let’s assume e Wilder can’t KO Mike, you still think he wins?

    because apart from his very very slim KO chance, he’s getting ktfo, and if miraculously he survives, it’s a clear shutout points win..

    their skillsets are so far apart. Tyson had a far greater skillset. Quite surprised you can’t see this; and leads me to believe that it’s more you are so eager to not praise/rate Tyson than anything else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,654 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    So then you'd have Fury and Marciano as a draw?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,654 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    Honest question, who has Fury fought outside of Wilder? Wlad a coupe of days short of his 40th birthday?



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