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Heavyweight Boxing

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    And I’d add that Buster was for that fight at his best. He was very impressive that night. Age and career wise Tyson was at his peak, or close to it, but his life was spiralling from mid 1988 onwards.

    He was definitely distracted, affected and clearly a step or two off. It’s there to see for anyone following boxing and Tyson. Add this to a very well prepared and effective Douglas, and there you have it.

    Huge credit to Buster; but I don’t think Buster wins had he met the 1986-1988 Rooney prepared Tyson. I’d be very confident that this Tyson beats Buster 99/100 times



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,555 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Douglas got up off the canvas for that fight. He was a tidy enough fighter but tyson was so dominant that the betting odds were nuts again him.


    It was one of the greatest upsets in sporting history for a reason. Because of tysons ability.


    Ruiz beating AJ. Was a surprise but will be forgotten about for the same reason



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,875 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Yeah the leeway Tyson is given by some is odd. Its an age profile thing I suppose. Growing up with Tyson as the man.

    Sensational fighter early in his career. The HW division was in the bin when he started though. The worst since the 50s. Maybe with the exception of Spinks. A light HW.

    Tyson lost to any really good fighter he faced, got KO'd by Buster Douglas (yeah he didnt train but part of being great is to train!), never avenged any of his defeats, never walk through fire, never got off the floor to win and was KO'd more times than any other heavyweight champion apart from Buster Douglas and a couple of other flash in the pans. Granted, the last few fights were a shambles. Not close to the top 10 heavyweights ever never mind top boxers.

    That said, a 1988/89 Kevin Rooney trained Tyson, who knows. Could've retired undefeated. 60-0. 70-0. Looked unbeatable. Will go down as one of the biggest ever mistakes in sport, firing Rooney. But saying Tyson is one of the best HWs (top 5) because he domainted the division for 4 years is like saying Joshua is one of the best because he did the same.

    Above mostly nicked (from myself!) from below thread which is worth a read/resurrection. Always a good conversation!

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057758457/would-mike-tyson-have-had-sustained-success-against-todays-super-heavy-weights/p1



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Tyson gets eff all leeway. If anything he is generally more harshly assessed than others. Buster fight he lost. We get it. But he was not the same fighter that night. He just wasn’t. It’s not an excuse. It’s just an observation .

    Other than the above, he usually gets slated as fighting nobodies and bums, despite him cleaning out the division and beating all the top rated guys , and going 10–1 (championship fights) or thereabouts up to and including the loss to Douglas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,555 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    Fighter like tyson never retires undefeated. Regardless of who trains him. If he stayed where he was and kept in the right head space.. Douglas was a 4 round fight and probably doesn't go to jail either. I still think he loses his fights that he lost towards the end.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,875 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Impossible to know I suppose. Don King ruined him.

    I suppose Tyson has beaten Roy Jones Jnr now so that'll jump him up a place!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Do you think prime Tyson beats prime AJ/Wilder/Fury?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,875 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    AJ in about 30 seconds.

    Wilder and Fury, not sure. Theyre so big and fight so big, but prime Tyson probably could get inside them yeah.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I nearly read that as AJ wins inside 30 seconds..

    Tyson definitely gets to Wilder. No doubt...takes him out early. Feet and hands too fast. Wilder's poor feet and movement never allow him escape.

    Fury has the best chance



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,875 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Yeah probably. Wilder is 6ft 7 though. Who was the tallest Tyson fought? Lewis?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Tucker was 6 feet5/6…and came to survive and spoil. And was clearly beaten.

    anyway, even if Tyson couldn’t connect clean to head (which I believe very unlikely), he’d cripple Wilder in close to the body..

    if it goes 12, expect a clear points win for prime Tyson. Tyson could box very well with plan B points when he could not get the KO. No way 10-20 punches per round Wilder (who always looks terrified to get hit) outpoints Tyson

    Wilder’s height here will be more advantageous to Tyson than to Wilder..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,105 ✭✭✭✭OmegaGene




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,892 ✭✭✭✭Mantis Toboggan


    You'd imagine at some stage wilder will land that right hand, would Tyson survive? Who knows.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Tyson took a helluva shot. Took Buster 10 rds of steady pasting to finally put Tyson away. And still Tyson was trying to get up. Wilder lands far far less than Buster did. Buster could actually throw combinations inside and outside. Wilder can’t

    Wlider has a straight right hand. Against Tyson, who was far shorter, this shot is just not the shot for Wilder. Take the jab. A very important shot to set up your combinations, or to keep your foe at range. Wilder has no jab, at least not one that will be effective vs Tyson

    Added to this is Wilder’s lack of punch variation, as well as his lack of punch mechanics and variability. He’s an upright stiff single shot power puncher. No real punch/body manoeuvrability.

    Take a Bowe or Lewis. Both 6 inches taller than Mike, but both had far better punch variation and punch selection. And excellent jabs! As well as damaging inside games. They could punch standing tall, short and mid. They had far better body mechanics than Wilder.

    I cannot at all see the straight right power shot being a winner for Wilder. Tyson is on him all night and hitting him really hard from all sides/angles. 3 rds tops



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 797 ✭✭✭reclose


    Has anyone any opinions on why we haven’t seen any new heavyweights attempt to fight in Mike Tyson’s style?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    He had a very unique style…everything about it.

    Cus modelled him on the Floyd Patterson peekaboo style. Bob, weave, forward pressure and fast attacking feet using angles.

    Even watch him training: I don’t think any footage exists where he is doing any textbook fundamental type drills.

    I have never seen him do a standard normal type pads session. It’s all manic explosion and in your face attacks.

    Everything was power punching combinations, focusing on angles and attacking speed.

    Closest style I have seen was Frazier and Tua, or a middleweight Nigel Benn.

    Frazier didn’t have the speed/variation of Tyson, but did have the same come forward pressure aggression style.

    Post edited by walshb on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,226 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Was just gonna mention Frazier when you talked about Patterson. I liked Patterson but his back gave in on him and he had serious self belief problems.

    on aj, wilder and fury question earlier…

    yes, yes and probably. Of the three Tyson finds wilder the easiest and would wipe him out. It would look awful, maybe a one rounder. Wilder would have to try and spoil and he’s dung ar that.

    aj combos and uppercut give him some faint hope.

    fury would need some kinda clever plan but I think I favour Tyson here too



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Yes, I agree. Wilder easiest of the three. He has no way to win for me. I am not even considering his right hand. Just doesn’t work for me.

    AJ a very close second easiest. He has far better overall punching than Wilder, but vs Tyson it means eff all. He no way makes it 12 doing it and not getting tagged. AJ is not at all difficult to tag, and for such an aggressive fighter like Tyson, this proves deadly. No chin, and no survival/spoiling instincts/abilities. Tyson had a great chin. You had to hammer him to put him away.

    Fury makes a proper go of it due to height and size and ring IQ/intangibles.

    Post edited by walshb on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,226 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    That’s the exact right way to put it no way. I picture him lying crumpled on the canvass writhing in agony after a huge body assault and that’s if he’s lucky enough to go down then. The uppercut to the head doesn’t bear thinking about.

    with aj I reckon he has some (not much) bit of footwork and stance but the fool would likely try to box him and get flattened. Best chance is to throw. Might absorb hits to last 3-5 rounds.

    fury I think is about 35-40% chance so I still favour Tyson by a distance but I can see ways he might win.

    point of all of this is we’re judging them against the very prime Mike not other versions though. I would probably favour prime Mike against anyone but that doesn’t mean he’s a better boxer that has to be judged over a career and in that scenario or discussion Tyson does t get off the hook for all the things that detract from his legacy. Fact that as you say he’d never have kept it up anyway for the longer term means others would have always been voted above him. Think I’m making sense



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,950 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Really hate the talk of what "he could have been " He is who he is & it wasn't good enough to keep him at the top,

    The mental side of the game is the bigger part & he couldn't keep it together,

    Crazy if you think about it but Fury probably done more damage to himself & chances at boxing in his 2 year bender of drink & drugs than Mikes prison sentence did to him & it was Fury who came back stronger , i realise having different skill sets is a massive reason for that

    Another mad one is in Mike's last fight before Prison he was the same age as AJ was making his professional debut



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Yep. Tyson achieved a ridiculous amount pre prison. By 20/21 he was undisputed and lineal HW champion…

    Post prison was not near as successful, of course, but still won a version or two of the championship, and was still top rated.

    Had Tyson retired after beating Carl Williams he would have achieved a lot more than many historical HW champions. 10-0 as champion, and about 37-0 overall.

    Definitely does enough to make my top ten ever HWs..

    and prime for prime, he is right near the top in fantasy matches.

    I’d probably lean with a prime Vitali/Bowe as his toughest tests.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,546 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Just in your comment that the heavyweight division was in the bin back then, I'd say it's worse now. When Whyte is top five and Chisora top ten it's pretty bad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,226 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Don’t like to say it but any version of Lewis also would give him his fill of it.

    Ali I rate higher in the fantasy fight.

    Prime Holmes for sure considering an absolutely finished one gave him a good go for 4 rounds when he was a wrecking ball.

    mention for both Johnson and Louis as well. Very small hws by today’s standards but humans have expanded and evolved.

    not saying all these guys beat him but def test him. And Ike, what a fight that would have been. Reckon Tyson takes him but don’t blink. He had trouble with Byrd but he was a slippery customer and ended up wiping him out



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,875 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    This is true yeah. Was bad post Holmes though. Tony Tubbs a top 5. Tyrell Biggs top 10 etc.

    Its all been sh1t since Holyfield/Tyson/Lewis lets face it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 467 ✭✭nj27


    I think Tyson might have had a decent chance at beating Fury in his prime because his inside fighting was so brutal and effective that Fury might not be able to put his weight on him and wear him down. He could throw a lightning fast combination of uppercuts and hooks to the body before Fury could manage to get into a clinch. I'd actually like to see Whyte have a go against Fury because he's closer to that style than anyone he has fought so far.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,950 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    The reason id pick Fury is because we have never seen him lose no matter what Fury turns up he finds a way to win ,

    Mike showed us numerous times he can be beat, he can turn up not ready , he can give up , all things we are yet to see form Fury ,

    If you want to watch the highlights of explosive ,vicious heavy weight boxing watch a highlight package of Mike,

    If you want to watch the greatest Heavy weights in action he's a long way down that list,



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Goes back to what Fury has beaten....he has beaten nobody close to what Mike brings...nobody

    He has beaten a timid old man Wlad and a very ordinary (bar power) Wilder.....

    Tyson will bring heat like nothing Fury has ever seen. He brings a combination of speed/power/aggression that no man has brought to Fury. Not even close.

    Closest was fooking Derek Chisora, who lasted many rds with Fury. Mike Tyson is so superior and so more deadly a puncher than Chisora. Far faster everywhere....

    So saying he has always finds ways to win is not all that applicable here, I feel.

    Fury will probably be spending most the time trying to contain and avoid taking flush shots. Wilder had him badly hurt several times, but never was Wilder able to follow up properly.....hence guys like Tyson and Lewis would be very bad for Fury, because both can really close the show

    Another area: what shots will Fury be hitting a 5 feet 11 bobbing and weaving Tyson with to even discourage him, or beat him with? A jab? A 1-2 and then clinch? Fury will find it very difficult punching downwards so low....more difficult than Mike will find it coming up and under.

    If he lasts 12, which I reckon he does not, then he is probably more spoiling and surviving. Tyson had a very good engine during his Rooney prepared days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,557 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Yes, Lewis could very well give prime Tyson issues. I just believe that his chin won't survive. Lewis did not have a glass chin. It was a decent chin, but Mike was so so much better 1986-1988 compared to 2002. Now, Lewis may have been better than 2002, but that's questionable. Lewis in the late 90s and early 2000s was a hulk of a man, and physically stronger than the lighter early 90s version

    Lewis is kind of like Ali for me....his peak was a mix of two timespans. Ali mid to late 60s and early to mid 70s....was stronger and took better shot in the 1970s.......was faster and more elusive in the mid 60s. Lewis was faster in the early 90s, and more aggressive, but stronger and more mature/experienced in the late 90s and early 2000s...

    Problem for Lewis is that during both spans, he was clean knocked out. A prime Tyson will be very dangerous for Lewis....

    Joe Louis: a boxer-puncher at 200 lbs. I happen to think prime Tyson gets him out in a round. Tyson is Joe's worst style match

    1. Joe could be hit
    2. he could be hurt
    3. Tyson comes to kill
    4. won't find Joe difficult to find/hit
    5. Tysons chin better
    6. 20 lbs solid weight heavier

    Clean win for Mike here

    Holmes? Watch their 1988 fight again, Holmes was doing nothing. Few silly flashes on his toes and popping a jab. He was then brutally taken out

    Tyson always a bad match for Holmes. Holmes was not, for me, as wily/durable/resilient as Ali. Larry as down heavy several times from far less overall deadly punchers than Mike. Holmes has nothing on his shots to deter Mike. And Holmes will not avoid heavy leather...he gets knocked out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,875 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Holmes was nearly 40, fat and retired. He wasnt late 70s/early 80s Holmes.

    Not bashing him (honestly!) but people forget that a lot of prime Tysons fights were against people like Lou Saverse, Brian Nielson, Marvis Frazier, Bruce Seldon, Alfonso Ratliff, Alex Stuart, Peter McNeely. All the people you see on the KO reels.

    Honest question. Who was the best boxer he ever beat? Spinks? Bruno?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,892 ✭✭✭✭Mantis Toboggan


    A fit Fury at 280 pounds with big reach and height advantage is a nightmare for Tyson imo.

    Free Palestine 🇵🇸



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