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Michael D Higgins insists he is President of Ireland, refuses to commemorate partition

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,685 ✭✭✭zimmermania


    Er i think they do.The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (official name) is a sovereign state made up of England,Scotland ,Wales and Northern Ireland.

    Many people in Northern Ireland consider themselves British and no amount of bluster will change that because it is a fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,685 ✭✭✭zimmermania


    Adams,he was never in the IRA, all SF TDs, they all existed on the AIW,those lads and lassies would never lie!!! They can be trusted so all the others cannot be trusted but SF can.Roll of eyes ha ha lets hear it for the kneecappers,paragons of virtue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    What are you blathering on about now?

    It is clear that you want to put up the extreme Republican SF viewpoint when it comes to Partition and the GFA.


    Abortion and SSM is the law of the land because the people willed it via a referendum.

    The GFA is the law of the land because the people willed it via a referendum.

    In the GFA we acknowledge that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. THIS.IS.A.FACT!!


    Nobody who voted yes for SSM or Abortion is going to turn around and say, 'They voted 'yes' but they don't accept it' That is just voodoo witch doctor nonsense being spouted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    All is well and good, but the text of the GFA is straight cut here. NI is and does still remain part of the United Kingdom. Indeed it is up to the NI Secretary to call a border poll, which is in effect a veto of sorts. So, the ball is truly in the Westminister court here.


    Sure, we can reach out to the Unionist community because after all, one needs to reunite people before they reunite territory. If we do that, then a UI will become a reality. If we go down the hardline Republican route, then we are kicking that can down the road.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Decent article.


    The Catholic 'Super Majority' is now a pipe dream. The demographics are shifting and there are now a larger number of people who want to truck to be either a Catholic or a Protestant.

    Very interesting to see that the 'No Religion' group is a big as the Catholic group, and growing all the time...

    I can understand though, why tie yourself to an organisation (The RCC) and their misdeeds of the past while the likes of SF use it as some ethnic marker. One should not be defined by their religion and young people are doing that all by themselves.


    I can see a situation where the status quo will be there for decades where the 'No Religion' group supersedes both Catholic and Protestant. I can see this leading to a situation that the UI debate will be purely fought on economic reasons, and if NI can have a foot in both the EU and the UK, then why on earth would they want to change?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    None of the religious groups are growing.... when you go the church on Sunday how many people are there.... Where i live the churches would be well full at the height of the troubles and now maybe 20 and i could not see any of them carrying a gun or marching...

    They say if you do not vote you lose the right to criticize... Surely the same rule applies here and always did... If we want to talk about we need to be a church-goer and live by the code...

    I think its an absolute DISGRACE people who never stand in a church start preaching about religion and condemning other religions... I think all church-goers should have loyalty cards (like tesco) to see their attendance at events that are not televised just to see.

    It might be an interesting experiment... For me leave the church out as its hypocrisy at its best...



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I asked, where in the GFA do we acknowledge that?

    Sit down and read carefully - we acknowledge in the GFA that we will accept the will of the majority - be that to be in the UK or a UI.

    Here is the extremely carefully worded section that allowed the President to decline an invitation to 'marking' the event in his official capacity - and incidentally allows those who wish to be partitionist to accept the invitation.

    (iii) acknowledge that while a substantial section of the people in Northern Ireland share the legitimate wish of a majority of the people of the island of Ireland for a united Ireland, the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland’s status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people;

    You could not be more wrong.

    Fact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Can I ask you a question on this?

    We have the usual scaremongers here talking about apocalyptic violence from Loyalists in the event of any moves towards fulfilling the wish of the majority if it votes for a UI.

    Let's say they are right - do you think Loyalists will be checking loyalty and attendance records when they embark again on their random violence against the other community?

    In other words, do you know what actually happened the last time? Nobody was checking the baptismal records before random and brutally killing. You were chosen because of where you came from, what area you were bundled into a car etc. Not because of the intensity of your faith.

    In other words, it will not matter if you are in a religious group or a No Religious Group. You can see this very thing happening right now, if you care to really look, instead of looking at cliche's or tropes as mark and blanch would have it. The Alliance are being portrayed as quasi -Shinners and therefore the legitimate targets of Loyalist abuse. If they did return to the random cold blooded killing sprees they were fond of, Alliance voters would be targets.

    'Religion' would have little to do with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    You just love the game and for you it will continue... i will not have a discussion about this as i am not carrying the said card myself....



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Yes, I know. Hard to come up with an answer when you have been indulging in cliche and trope.

    Adherence to your religion or non adherence never had anything to to with it. If you are identified as giving succor of any kind to the end of the 'Union', that is enough and always has been enough to make you a target.

    Leo Varadkar himself is a prime example of this. Unionists happy to come down and get applauded by him and his party but soon as he stands up for Ireland and voices a desire for Unity, look what happens - vilified and targeted.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Kind of like how the Republican movement was meant to be the defenders of Nationalists and Catholics, yet killed more of them than the British Army.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    Your moving the goal posts... your last comment mentioned religion and my initial view today was reply to religious comment... all politicians are targets... they sign up for that...



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    I posted the entire document and quoted the relevant text.

    We accepted partition Francie by voting for the GFA.


    ...recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain... 

    The majority of NI want to be and remain part of the UK today Francie, and it will be like that tomorrow too and the day after.

    That is a legitimate point of view as recognised by the GFA, a treaty you supported.

    Now you are doing a u-turn and taking the Republican SF point of view.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    acknowledge that while a substantial section of the people in Northern Ireland share the legitimate wish of a majority of the people of the island of Ireland for a united Ireland, the present wish of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland, freely exercised and legitimate, is to maintain the Union and, accordingly, that Northern Ireland’s status as part of the United Kingdom reflects and relies upon that wish; and that it would be wrong to make any change in the status of Northern Ireland save with the consent of a majority of its people; 

    This is the kicker....


    Partition is the will and wish of the majority of the people of NI, and by the GFA it is a legitimate point of view. By voting for the GFA you by proxy accept that wish and therefore accept partition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Ha ha Priceless. You refuse to bold the relevant bit. That's a classic!

    'of whatever choice'

    Try that in other words Mark, 'recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority on the availability of abortion services (replace with Same Sex Marraige if you wish)

    Does the above mean that you 'accept' abortion or Same Sex Marraige?

    Of course it doesn't, that would be a ridiculous projection.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You accept the will of the majority. Nothing more.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Can be dealing with somebody who reverts to riddles when challenged.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    And in the next breath you'll be calling them sectarian.

    Pick a position Mark, you are driving on both sides of the road at once.



  • Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭Speedline




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    "We accepted partition Francie by voting for the GFA"

    But we didn't vote "for the GFA", acceptance for the GFA and the recognition of legitimacy of the position of NI was made by the Government under international law before any referendum, and to repeat as I previously pointed out that recognition has long been the case since 1920, only the people of NI specifically voted for acceptance of the full terms of the GFA, the people of the South voted for a Constitutional amendment to enable the Government amend the Constitution to the proposed wording which they agreed to with the UK, nothing more, acceptance or rejection of the terms of the GFA was a Government competence, not a matter for the people.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado



    You didn't directly challenge anything i said in my post on Religion...

    You are the one with riddles... i made my thoughts clear... you have nothing to say only blame someone else and poor Leo...

    If you have something concrete to say put in a post and we all know what you about...



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Correct here.

    Our support of the GFA was implied by our acceptance of the constitutional change.

    It's why some are saying a referendum is not required on unity in the south, we already constitutionally aspire to it. And nobody has contested that since 1998.

    If there is a referendum then partitionists will have to mount a campaign to effectively overturn/change that aspiration, constitutionally. I cannot wait to see that and who is going to support such a quest politically.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What is the relevance of Religion to this conversation?



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    An individual is free to dissent and personally say that they don't accept partition. That is fine, and it is ok for you to do that, while accepting the will of the majority and nothing more.

    However, the State, as an institution, expressed through the vote for the GFA, has accepted partition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Show us the text of this please?

    Seems to me that the head of state excercised the right of everyone to legitimately not accept partition. He refused to officially mark or recognise partition, accepting rightly in the opinion of what seems to be a massive majority that it would be wholly wrong for a head of this state and partitioned 'nation' to do that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Whilst support for the GFA would likely be implied by the referendum result it is then worth noting the spirit of the GFA was to bring about peace, not acceptance of partition as some claim.

    The Government's here and in the UK are free to negotiate and vary any terms within the GFA as they see fit, it was never for us to decide what the Government's negotiated, agreed to or accepted, we were never given that choice.

    The reality is that even had the referendum result been a majority no, the terms of the GFA (i.e the recognition of the wish of the majority of people of NI) would not render the GFA unconstitutional.

    Anyone who argues a referendum is not required here for a united Ireland is incorrect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think the need for a referendum is definitely arguable, but I personally would like to see one for previous stated reasons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    "However, the State, as an institution, expressed through the vote for the GFA, has accepted partition"

    So is it the state as an institution or the people you say accepted partition? The state isn't an institution, it's the people, the Government is an institution of the State, but not the people of the state, and it should be noted that the Government accepted the terms of the GFA, not the people, and on that point the Government accepted the terms of the GFA before the Irish people voted to amend the Constitution, not after it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    The Working Group on Unification Referendums on the Island of Ireland which consists of some of the top experts and professors of law in both jurisdictions has examined the issue from a Constitutional and statutory legal point and determined a referendum is required here.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 67,005 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I know this, but I think it will be challenged. On the basis that a state is compelled to act on it's constitution - which aspires to unity.



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