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The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,328 ✭✭✭Upforthematch


    Out of interest, what would you demand that "every child in the country be forced" to spend several hours a week doing?

    A less sensational way of putting this is, what would you have on the core curriculum? Would you have a core curriculum at all?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,328 ✭✭✭Upforthematch


    It's valuable for Irish speakers and as a cultural remnant of our past and should be preserved among those who want to preserve it. (Wibbs)

    So does your support mean - don't have Irish on the core curriculum in schools beyond a certain point; but leave all the other schemes in place e.g. official translation, gaeltacht community programmes, Tg4 etc...?

    Other than employing fewer Irish teachers in secondary schools, are you pretty much in favour of the status quo?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock



    Getting off topic here, but I'd bring in philosophy and a general cultural studies course, encompasing sports, arts, langauge and mythology.

    No core subjects after Junior Cert. At the point, students have enough knowledge for necessary lifeskills useage.

    And I'm pretty sure you'd have a much better sense of cultrual identity than bilingual transport announcements.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,328 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    I am glad the prominence of the Irish language is creeping. Long may it continue to creep, hopefully the speed of it's creeping will increase too. Down with the haters!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Well I wouldn't have it mandatory in primary school so not exactly status quo. I'd make it opt in/out from the get go. I would leave the translations, community and TG4 alone. I'd divert what resources that might be freed up from compulsory education into those areas, including gaelscoils. IMHO that's a better use of resources than the scattergun approach, an approach that clearly hasn't worked over the last hundred years.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    I would want it it at least 50% Irish in pre-school and primary schools at least up to the start of 5th class. Children are like sponges at that early stage and they will be fluent effortlessly by then.

    I'd favour a choice after that, particularly Leaving Cert. I don't agree with anyone that says there is any benefit to doing English or Irish for the Leaving Cert.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Saying that children are like sponges is just a convienince. If it was true, they'd be picking it up in far larger numbers.

    Idea has been shot down already for various reasons: we don't have the resources, the skills (considering we can bearly teach Irish in Irish, expanding it to other subjects sounds particualry daft) and parents aren't going to be willing to gamble their kids education against a langauge revival on the basis that they're "sponges".

    You need more Irish outside of the classroom, not in it.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    A small child of 3 or 4 has a very basic vocabulary, I'd be very surprised if an adult in the child care industry couldn't teach at least very basic stuff. And once in primary school, I think all teachers have to have Irish so it wouldn't be that difficult to imagine that they could carry out a good portion of their class work through Irish.

    I agree that there is a lack of opportunity to speak Irish in day to day interactions, but that could all change if children are brought through school with it and found it easy to communicate in Irish. The trouble at the moment is there are too many people with bad attitudes towards Irish, they either had bad education in Irish or bad experiences with it in school, or just have a bad attitude to languages in general. I wouldn't base an education system around people like that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Teachers having Irish, and being able to teach Irish and then being able to teach other subjects in Irish are completely separate skills - and from what I hear (from Irish speakers themselves) is that the levels of Irish in primary schools is not that great.

    Again - we're not teaching Irish well enough to start branching out to other subjects, and if kids were sponges, they be picking the langauge up already, woudn't they?

    That last paragraph has a lot of assumption, flawed logic and what you "think" might happen to be taken seriously.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    And yet of the gaelscoileanna already fluent in Irish students who easily communicate all day in the language, outside the gates revert to English. This idea that we can artificially revive a language and by imposition with it is beyond daft. A cultural revival pipedream.

    As for adults in the child care industry being able to teach the basic stuff; the census reports 40% with varying degrees of fluency in the language. It seems many, if not most aren't fluent and a cupla focal is the extent of it, because if we had close to 40% actual fluency we wouldn't be having this conversation. However that still leaves 60% who state they have bugger all fluency in the language. The percentages would suggest at least half of these childcare people couldn't teach the basics.

    The trouble at the moment is there are too many people with bad attitudes towards Irish, they either had bad education in Irish or bad experiences with it in school, or just have a bad attitude to languages in general

    Or, and here's a crazy notion, they see little to no actual utility to the language beyond this vaunted cultural past. But let's say your breakdown of those too many people is correct, do you really think imposing the language on them and their kids will magically sway them? It's a pipe dream. Never mind that one in five people living in Ireland aren't ethnically Irish. They'll have a pass right off the bat.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Fishdoodle


    No, give support those that want it but stop sending flyers about tin whistles and céilí

    This little comment is really insightful -and funny too 😅

    Simply being open enough to support others in cultural use/expression goes a long way & plays a vital part in keeping culture alive.

    By partake - I’m not sure whether you mean as musicians or listeners? Certainly, as an audience the % of appreciation exceeds those who actually play - mutually beneficial.

    Most good musicians picked up the passion to learn from having a great music teacher. What sparks off the passion is so important - every good beginning starts with that.

    Where language & the arts meet can be quite powerful. Singing and sport : 'Amhrán na bhFiann' , can evoke tears in grown-ups who don't speak Irish daily. I think formal reading and writing could take a back-seat to singing / playing games to learn conversational skills.

    even if it was only 15% I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have people stepping and demanding that every child in the country be forced to spend several hours a week doing it.

    This evokes in me the image of some militant minority group of 'them' forcing the whole country of kiddies to do something. 🙂 I think this argument is a bit of a non-runner - as the same could be said for any subject. I had a teacher so awful at teaching Maths in school - I'd be forced to stay in over lunch until I could grasp a new concept (some area of numeric fractions before the I got the visual concept). So I took an aversion to Maths until later in life - but bear no grudge against the maths world ...even though I found never found use in quadratic equations in practical life 😅 The curriculum pretty much demands that time is spent on learning stuff!

    That said, there are schools where children decide what they want to learn based on their innate curiosity … and it goes from there (like ‘Sudbury Schools’ I think they’re called).

    Wibbs:

    I would say it's useful for those who speak it on the regular among others, beyond that its pure utility is narrow.

    It's valuable for Irish speakers and as a cultural remnant of our past and should be preserved among those who want to preserve it.

    I think you make a decent argument to support those who speak / who wish to preserve the language, since by focusing resources towards those with a passion (Irish, Sport…whatever) they can in turn ignite that in others with cascading ripple effect. Like the parable of the sower -why throw resources "...to birds... rocky ground...or thorns, when fertile soil" will bring them to fruition. Teachers who have poor Irish shouldn’t teach it. They’re the poor soil 😅That’s why I’d favour specialist Irish teachers in English medium schools (where necessary) that could at least ignite some passion in the language.

    Resources spent on community groups is a good idea. Where Irish is used in learning another skill say (off the top off my head) like like boat building -relaxed atmosphere with a common goal and using the language as opposed to a ‘rang Gaeilge’ with an end result where the ‘group’ also bond - with the language as an add-on… they can sail their boat and continue speaking 🙂

    Going full on primary education in the language I don't support.

    Neither do I - in the sense that Dubhdubhgorm suggests in having all education - primary through to secondary Irish language.

    I do support having it taught in all schools - but ONLY if it being taught by a teacher who has fluency/interest/passion in the language & makes it interactive & fun. It should not be mandatory for teachers with little confidence in a subject area to teach it (those type of teachers shouldn’t be in the system at all but, sadly …they exist). So -some form of a specialist teacher(s) in a school would be good. I'd also be open to entire school staff spending 3 days in the Gaeltacht each year, where there'd be a focus on using Irish informally coupled with some area they'd like to upskill on -taught by premiership standard teachers. Encourage some informal bilingualism in the school.

    An experience can be mandatory but that doesn’t mean the experience is going to be good.

    Perhaps making it mandatory for all teachers to teach something with an assumption that they’ll be good at it is foolish. It makes little sense for a teacher who has no passion in something to teach it, whatever the area! When I did my leaving, I did get some extra grinds in English it made ALL the difference - just having a teacher who was inspiring once a week transformed Shakespeare and I started to 'get' poetry and enjoy it!

    REGARDING: Irish & Identity going way back ...

    We can get to a little before Christianity and the coming of the written word with primitive Irish, but beyond that we've no real clue.

    I'm not so sure I can agree with you here. So, just to be clear -regarding identity and culture - I'm including symbolism in the frame here as found not only in written tradition but also to the preceding oral tradition which was very strong. The orally based knowledge-bearing tradition carried with it, unaltered core-information, passed on generations before it was written. The symbology within it predates written accounts by, well - 'how long?' is anyone's guess -100's to perhaps 1000's of years? I believe the symbology carried through myth & legend appeals to our deeper psyche -language may have changed here and there but didn’t the symbolic imagery exist before the written word, which subsequently got carried through? Changes in language structure still preserved the imagery behind it. (Would love to get your opinion on this Wibb’s) 😉


    It is easier for children to learn languages at a young age. The ‘like sponges’ metaphor has a lot of truth behind it. Babies and young children are hard-wired to soak in pattern and sound -that’s partly the reason even pre-speech that they like nursery rhymes: pattern, repetition, musicality of words etc...

    You don’t teach a baby via English lessons…they soak it in like osmosis- accents and all ☺️ Learning language young is a big advantage!


    being able to teach Irish and then being able to teach other subjects in Irish are completely separate skills


    we're not teaching Irish well enough to start branching out to other subjects,

    Well this is partially true -if Irish is look upon as a subject with a focus solely on grammar, for example then sure, it’s different to teaching say, geography. But Irish is a language more so than a subject. Language can be applied to any area. You can play ‘Simon Says’ in Irish class & use it as warm up for sports & have children take over to give instructions. A story about St Brigit (history) can be Irish class & history at the same time.

    The primary curriculum has a holistic view of learning by integrating subjects.

    Secondary school - it’s more compartmentalised for sure.

    If the conversational language taught in class can be used (& modelled) during the day, kids can ask for things like ‘can I sit next to ‘Joe’ . Can I get a drink / colour it in …. all day long they can learn to ask for things …once they’ve the structure to do so. Same goes for any regular phrase they use during the day- make it child centred and away you go! Drama is one of the best ways to learn / practice a language -little scripts -children can play around with the words a bit and pretend they’re other characters-they love that kind of activity … it actually takes the focus away from ‘I’m learning a language’ -makes a huge difference - they start to take ownership of it.

    That said, you’re right in a sense that some teachers don’t have the confidence to speak Irish…let alone teach it, some use ‘the book’ as a crutch …and put that away after a lesson … tick a box and that’s Irish taught for the day & kids breathe a sigh of relief …sad 😞

    that could all change if children are brought through school with it and found it easy to communicate in Irish

    👍 Child / student centered communication is key.


    And yet of the gaelscoileanna already fluent in Irish students who easily communicate all day in the language, outside the gates revert to English.

    I wouldn’t be too worried about that. There’s different reasons for ex - their parents speaking English outside the gates - they just flip to English , but can flip back again just as easily if the environment is more conducive. The main thing is to nurture a positive attitude at a young age. In secondary school it’s cool to do your own thing - and get away with behaviour that’s not allowed in school - like speaking English - there are no sanctions outside school 🙂 Again, I think once the seed of positivity is sown it can bear fruit at a later stage.

    Post edited by Fishdoodle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 118 ✭✭ahappychappy


    Given the amount of kids with Irish exemptions in my son's class I have no idea how Irish all day could be implemented ? Surely the Gael scoil are there for those who want Irish for their kids.

    Schools have made great progress to be more inclusive I would rather see my kids step up their lamh and progress to Irish sign language.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Fishdoodle


    This idea that we can artificially revive a language and by imposition with it is beyond daft.

    That’s quite a good point. If Irish is being taught artificially well then that’s a problem. Having people teach it who don’t have it (like presuming all childcare workers would have a basic grasp…no way they would) - that’s artificial & ain’t gonna work.

    Or, and here's a crazy notion, they see little to no actual utility to the language beyond this vaunted cultural past.

    ‘They’ relates to the people with bad attitudes towards Irish.

    Yep- no point wasting lots of resources on people with hardened attitudes. Some people could be be swayed to change attitudes ( like the Linda Irvine example) , but takes a lot more effort. Out of the 60% who can’t speak Irish (based on census) a percentage would be favourable, some indifferent and the rest … no interest in it.

    Never mind that one in five people living in Ireland aren't ethnically Irish.

    Do you remember the Chinese couple who learned Irish (to be respectful to the culture) - applied to have their citizenship processed / granted through Irish and kept getting their application declined because, it was submitted ….. through Irish * facepalm * 😅

    Post edited by Fishdoodle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Just with regard to the kids picking up languages bit - as I said to gormdubh, you need the right environment for that - and that's for to be at home as much as anything. It doesn't exist.

    I think we're agreed on the passion bit, certainly - but that coyld be extended to school generally.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    The bottom line is that by learning a second language at a young age it empowers children with language ability for the rest of their lives.

    Children love to learn languages when they are small, it's actually fun to learn Irish phrases as a small child.

    It's only when the language turns from being a mode of communication into an exam subject that anyone has an issue with it.

    I'd be very interested to know how people from New Zealand would hold their own Maori language in relation to school and exams etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,825 ✭✭✭Evade


    It's very easy to forget the languge you spoke for about 6 hours a day 180+ days a year for 10 years straight once you stop using it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    The bottom line is that this theory has been dismantled several times, most recently in the post above yours.

    I suggested the no-exams idea a few pages back, but it got shot down by someone who failed to provide any reason, so I'm not sure where people feel on that issue.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Fishdoodle


    Children acquire languages easier when young - there are plenty of studies available to back that up. It has to do with areas of brain function which are more active when young. I can post some links up if interested.

    The ideal environment is the home & immersive environments where the language is naturally spoken.

    I looked back through the thread but couldn’t find where the theory (whereby it’s easier to pick up a language when young) was dismantled but would be interested in seeing anything to back that up.

    No exams isn’t such a bad idea 🙂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    It was more a case of kids 'automatically' picking up second languages. They don't. They need a set environment, as you say yourself in your second paragraph.

    If it were the case, we'd have a much higher bilingual population than we do. Especially at preteen levels.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It'd be interesting to know if some New Zealanders give out about the creeping prominence of Te Reo Māori.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    not so, the person made an uninformed statement about forgetting a language, it never goes away, a small bit of revision will always bring it back easily.

    and the most important point was completely missed, learning a language empowers a child in the ability to learn a language, that’s simply irrefutable.

    it Would be extremely foolish to deny a child the opportunity to develop their ability to learn a language, when they may need to learn a new language when they are older, and it will make it easier to learn another language if a person has already learned another language.

    that’s only one point, plenty other reasons, but that point on its own is enough to end the debate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,825 ✭✭✭Evade


    Ah yes, my own experience of going from fluent to essentially no ability at all is misinformed. Do I have any other thoughts you'd like to share? Some of it probably would come back with study but learning something as a child does not a lifelong skill make.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,779 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Which person? I replied to a post you made that quoted no one.

    I'd agree with your other points but - again - it's not automatic. We teach kids two languages for fourteen years and very little results. So teaching kids a second language is a moot point.

    If I was as passionate about the Irish language as soome of the people on this thread claim to be, I'd be up in arms about that, rather than feeling smug about a few roads bilungual train announcements.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    No, Gaelic means what is spoken in parts of Scotland; in Ireland we call it Irish. Even in Kerry.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I don't think there's anything specifically Irish about either rugby or Beyonce, but whatever rocks your boat!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    English changed and continued to change and changes today and so rapidly because of its advantages in many areas and widespread use across different cultures who added to it because of empire(not so good) and trade which brought many influences to bear(not least the Irish). This is a fair sign of its utility. Why you include it as some sort of pidgen or creole language is beyond me. And an educated English speaker could understand most of Chaucer just as fairly easily too. What's your point? My point still remains; Irish is not close to the most ancient spoken language in Europe as was claimed/believed earlier. As I said Greek both in the written and spoken form nukes it from orbit as far as antiquity goes. Never mind the legacy of art, law, engineering, science and philosophy contained within that history.

    The reason I call English a creole is because under the influence of the Normans the language previously spoken in England - Anglo-Saxon - became something completely different; not completely different from what Chaucer wrote, but from Anglo-Saxon.

    It was this influence from Norman French that started English on the process that made it what it is today. And as someone who is currently reading Chaucer, I am in the position to compare it to 14th century Irish - and Chaucer - while having a great deal in common with modern English - is much further from it than 14th century Irish is from modern Irish. In my informed opinion, might I add!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    if kids were sponges, they be picking the langauge up already, woudn't they?

    Studies into learning second languages have shown that 5,000 contact hours are required for fluency. This is why so many kids leave school without fluency in Irish. It is also why all Gaelscoil pupils who have gone the whole way through the system in that environment become fluent in Irish - maths, sports etc through Irish, these are also contact hours. As also would be TV, cinema, radio, netflix and so on.

    A study carried out in the Basque country where there are three school systems - Basque, Spanish and Bilingual - found that only the Basque-language education brought about generalised fluency. Obviously the bilingual education was an improvement over Spanish as the vehicular language with Basque just as a subject. And of course, even the latter produced some fluent speakers - because some people will have contact hours outside of the school setting.

    So the kids being sponges isn't sufficient - more is needed!



  • Posts: 2,352 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The story is that Bono wrote some of the lyrics of the song Bad based on a traumatic experience with the Modh Coinníollach.

    "If I could, you know I would, if I could, I would"

    Apparently Larry Mullen gave him a slap and said "Let it go, Bono. Let it feckin' go."


    (The above may be true)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Fishdoodle


    😂 -Had to laugh at that one! Maith Thú Ulysses!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,378 ✭✭✭deirdremf


    I'd doubt that, to be honest. Speaking a few languages myself, I'd say it takes a very special type of effort.

    But then I've met people who absolutely don't, cannot, never would, speak language X but when they found themselves in a fix it suddenly was there.



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