The Hobby Horses of Belief (and assorted hazards)

Odhinn · 16-08-2021 1:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117751984#Comment_117751984

Can't find the delete post option.......

Bannasidhe · 16-08-2021 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117761698#Comment_117761698

That would be an ecumenical matter.

Odhinn · 16-08-2021 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117762531#Comment_117762531

Indeed. There doesn't seem to be any swear filter at all, at all.

smacl · 17-08-2021 3:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117758000#Comment_117758000

Buddy Christ agrees :)

Hotblack Desiato · 26-08-2021 6:01pm

The Patrician Brothers didn't exactly slum it, did they!

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/new-to-market/former-religious-residence-offers-scope-for-boutique-hotel-for-750-000-1.4650964

robindch · 26-08-2021 7:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117807244#Comment_117807244

Extending to 650sq m, the property is Ber exempt on account of it being a religious building.

Didn't realise that religions are BER-exempt in addition to everything else they're exempt from.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-08-2021 12:16am

Ugh. There appears to be no depth to which this state will not sink in its desperation to appease the RCC

Hotblack Desiato · 01-09-2021 3:25pm

I'd posted yesterday in Scandals (should've been here really) about the vast value of church property and government proposals to ask the church to maybe, at some point in time, possibly consider moving towards a position where utilising vast tracts of redundant / unused property and land for the benefit of the Irish people could be an option:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/value-of-church-owned-lands-and-property-in-ireland-estimated-at-billions-1.4660303

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0830/1243751-catholic-church-housing/

Letter in today's IT:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/religious-lands-and-housing-1.4661183

Sir, – The current efforts by the Government to utilise lands owned by religious denominations to help solve the housing crisis may be hampered by Article 44.2.6 of the Constitution which states that such property “shall not be diverted save for works of public utility and on payment of compensation”.

The Article, for example, proved an obstacle for Mr Justice John Kenny in his 1973 report (the Kenny Report) when he got around the issue by proposing that legislation to designate areas for building would not apply to the property of any religious denomination, or of any educational institution.

The Article has been considered by a number of reports over the years. With the imminent publication of the Government’s Housing for All document, it may now be an appropriate time to consider an amendment to remove this largely redundant Article from the Constitution.

– Yours, etc,

TIM RYAN,

PhD researcher,

Dept of Social Work & Social Policy,

Trinity College Dublin.

So it appears religious property is even more protected than private property in general - which is quite heavily protected anyway.

If that article is just deleted, what would the actual effect be? small enough I'd imagine as religious-owned property would have to be CPOed on the same basis as any other.

Peregrinus · 02-09-2021 1:41am

"I'd posted yesterday in Scandals (should've been here really) about the vast value of church property and government proposals to ask the church to maybe, at some point in time, possibly consider moving towards a position where utilising vast tracts of redundant / unused property and land for the benefit of the Irish people could be an option . . ."

It's a question you can only ask if you start from the assumption that using land for schools, hospitals, retirement homes, accommodation for the homeless, rehab clinics and the like are in any way for the benefit of the Irish people. Or, of course, if you are wholly ignorant that church property is used for this purpose.

02-09-2021 3:36am

The Patrician Brothers in Galway are in Kingston at the top of Taylors Hill, the most expensive part of town.

The building is functional enough but the location is top class.

smacl · 02-09-2021 2:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117836289#Comment_117836289

While I daresay the above accounts for a large amount of church owned property, I'd imagine there would also be significant property assets owned by the church either lying idle or having other uses. Without seeing a full inventory of the churches assets, we're left relying on supposition. There is also the question that where the ongoing running, maintenance and upgrading costs of a property asset have been funded primarily by the state for decades, as is the case with many schools or hospitals, at what point should ownership of that asset be returned to the state? To my mind the churches ownership of these properties has much in common with owning a ground lease on a property and (morally) should be dealt with on that basis. While the churches legal position here is no doubt copper fastened, I'd assert that their moral position as their numbers decline is becoming increasingly tenuous.

Peregrinus · 03-09-2021 2:07am

If the state wants to buy properties, it buys properties. It doesn't, by giving grants for work on the properties or subsidies for activities carried on on the properties, thereby acquire ownership of the properties. The state largely paid for the redevelopment of Croke Park and the construction of Aviva Stadium, but they are owned by the respective sporting bodies. The buildings and operations of the Central Remedial Clinic are almost wholly funded by the State, but they are still owned by the CRC. Etc, etc. There isn't a special rule for churches here.

It's called "having a voluntary sector". It's pretty common throughout the developed world.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2021 10:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117836289#Comment_117836289

Ah, so I'm either ignorant or some sort of sociopath?

Did you miss the "redundant / unused property and land" bit? 🙄

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2021 10:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117836341#Comment_117836341

"Functional" must be the new "bog standard"...

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2021 10:23am

It's called "having a voluntary sector". It's pretty common throughout the developed world.

It's not normal in the developed world to have public services delivered substantially (health) or almost exclusively (primary education) by private bodies through a religious ethos, while the state pays all the bills

03-09-2021 10:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841029#Comment_117841029

Nah, it's a flat roof 60s/70s building that looks a bit like it was built at the same time as the school in town.

Don't know what it is like inside.

Peregrinus · 03-09-2021 11:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841028#Comment_117841028

No, I didn't miss it. But your question about whether the church would "maybe, at some point in time, possibly consider moving towards a position" where church land not used for other purposes might be used for public benefit suggests that this has not been considered up to this point. In reality it has not only been considered but actually implemented on a very large scale. Your question therefore suggests that you are either either ignorant of this or simply discounting it as irrelevant.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2021 11:21am

They are sitting on vast tracts of unused land and abandoned buildings. Like divestment, they talk a good game.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-09-2021 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117841140#Comment_117841140

My post (with pictures) was about Newbridge though and that's far from "functional".

Hotblack Desiato · 05-09-2021 8:47pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/2021/0904/1244361-vaccine-hesitancy/

Dr Philip Hyland, Senior Lecturer at the Department of Psychology at Maynooth University, says the research showed that in Ireland, those who were hesitant about taking a Covid-19 vaccine were more likely to be female; a younger age (35-44); less altruistic; more likely to hold irrational beliefs (endorse religious and conspiratorial beliefs); lack trust in authority (lack trust in government, scientists, doctors/healthcare professionals); hold anti-migrant attitudes, and believe that one's own social group is superior to other groups in society.

😄😄😄 RTE describing religion as "irrational beliefs", never thought I'd see the day!

Hotblack Desiato · 22-09-2021 10:16pm

Curious that all of the major churches got together to organise an event to ~~celebrate~~ "commemorate" 100 years of partition / Northern Ireland - I mean what's not to like - sectarianism, tribal warfare, rampant discrimination, and the creation of two religion-dominated entities on this island making the lives of anyone not conforming with the local majority / keeping their head down a misery

These church "leaders" should all be hanging their heads in shame over what their organisations have done to the people of this island over the last 120 years or so.

So pleased that Michael D. Higgins told them nicely where to go with their nonsense.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-criticism-of-decision-not-to-attend-ni-ceremony-is-a-bit-much-president-says-1.4676249

But when he broke his silence on the controversy last night, the President strongly stood over his decision and rejected emphatically any suggestion of a snub or a boycott from him.

The kernel of the problem, he said, was the title of the interdenominational service on October 21st, which stated it would “mark the centenaries of the partition of Ireland and the formation of Northern Ireland”.

It was the reference to the “partition of Ireland” that caused the greatest difficulty, he said, as it politicised the event in way that made it inappropriate for him to attend.

“An invitation to a religious service or a religious event had in fact become a political statement,” said the President.

Too right...

I think the standing of the RCC among northern nationalists will have been greatly damaged by this. I won't be crying over that, naturally, but I'm just totally fed up with the damage that religion continues to do and the division it continues to cause.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-09-2021 10:44am

What is bizarre is that you'd think the heads of the two largest churches (in particular) would have some idea about diplomatic protocol. This was to be an event involving two heads of state ffs. Everything should have been sounded out beforehand and smoothed over quietly at the diplomatic level. One simply does not issue an invitation to a head of state unless one is absolutely certain it will be accepted.

Ironically these are the exact same guys who get into a huff when there's some entirely civil event taking place which they feel they should have been invited to but were not / were not put into an undeserved place of honour at an entirely secular event, and are far from slow to publicly voice their displeasure on such occasions.

Bannasidhe · 23-09-2021 1:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117926669#Comment_117926669

I have never understood Irish nationalist's loyalty to the RCC.

I mean come on - It 'gave' Ireland to Henry II. It confirmed Mary Tudor as Queen of Ireland. It supported the Act of Union in exchange for dialing down the Penal Laws (which applied to ALL non-Anglicans but they only wanted the RCC to get a special deal), utterly failed to act during the Famine, manoeuvred it's way into seizing control of the original National School system, and threatened Republicans with excommunication during the War of Independence.

And that's just the big ticket items - I could write a thesis on the times English Catholics (usually Jesuits) used Papal troops to stir up 'revolt' in Ireland with the express aim of replacing whichever Protestant arse sat on the Throne of England with a Catholic arse. Who even knows about the 'Catholic Confederation of Ireland' that sent an army across the water to fight Cromwell... and thereby ensured Cromwell became aware of the large pockets of English royalists in Garrison town in Ireland - like Drogheda. Nary an Irish name on the casualty list from the Siege of Drogheda... funny that.

Ireland was the ground where England sucked up to and later fought The Vatican - the Irish deaths were always considered collateral.

Hotblack Desiato · 28-09-2021 7:07pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sacramental-preparation-for-children-falls-far-short-1.4685051

Their whinge is that it isn't "working", not that it's massively discriminatory, a waste of valuable education hours, and that most parents don't want it in schools... I'd love to know why the Irish Times regularly feels obliged to print this sort of religion-promoting utter waffle.

ohnonotgmail · 28-09-2021 7:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117951119#Comment_117951119

an opinion piece from somebody involved in the church disguised as journalism.

robindch · 30-09-2021 4:52pm

It's all bullshit, Jim.

Of the many problems caused by Facebook, not the least of which is its reluctance to deal with its problems adequately, one of the more long-running is troll farms which are operated by uninterested individuals copying and pasting high-octane material which the facebook machine-learning code pushes out to individuals it deems susceptible to it.

In October 2019, an internal Facebook team investigated the popularity and reach of troll farms which actively targetted christian-americans, black-americans and native-americans. The team subsequently published an internal-only report which was subsequently leaked to MIT Technology Review which showed that, of the top-twenty native-american pages, only three were troll farms; of the top-twenty black-american pages, fifteen were troll farms and for our religious colleagues over in the top-twenty christian-american pages, only the 17th most popular wasn't a troll farm pumping out material from the safety of Kosovo and Macedonia.

The entire article here is worth reading to see just not only how fake so much of facebook's engagement-focused business model is, but how facebook actively encourages bad actors to post outrage-provoking content purely because there's money in it, and then does little or nothing to stop it.

Other takeaways include:

As of October 2019, around 15,000 Facebook pages with a majority US audience were being run out of Kosovo and Macedonia, known bad actors during the 2016 election.
Collectively, those troll-farm pages—which the report treats as a single page for comparison purposes—reached 140 million US users monthly and 360 million global users weekly. Walmart’s page reached the second-largest US audience at 100 million.
The troll farm pages also combined to form:
- the fifth-largest women’s page on Facebook, reaching 60 million US users monthly, 90% of whom had never followed any of the pages.
- the second-largest Native American page on Facebook, reaching 400,000 users monthly, 90% of whom had never followed any of the pages.
- the largest African-American page on Facebook, three times larger than the next largest—reaching 30 million US users monthly, 85% of whom had never followed any of the pages.
- the largest Christian American page on Facebook, 20 times larger than the next largest—reaching 75 million US users monthly, 95% of whom had never followed any of the pages.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/09/16/1035851/facebook-troll-farms-report-us-2020-election/

Hotblack Desiato · 30-09-2021 5:07pm

I've long maintained that Zuckerberg is a completely amoral sociopath.

He will be President of the United States one day.

Niska · 04-10-2021 9:41am

Rather than ressurect the 11 year Draw Mohammed Day thread , I think here is an appropriate place to post - Lars Viks (the Danish Cartoonist whose 2007 depiction of the Prophet Muhammad caused a tizzy), along with two police officers on protection duty, was killed in a car crash - their car hit a truck and burst into flames.

https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2021/1004/1250546-lars-vilks-sweden/