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No Time to Die **Spoilers from post #1449 onward**

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    The Guardian also covered it and went into more detail on the scene in question.

    "Cary Fukunaga appeared to refer to a scene in 1965’s Thunderball in which Connery’s Bond forcibly kisses a nurse (played by Molly Peters) who has spurned his advances. In a later scene, Bond suggests he will keep quiet about information that could cost her her job if she sleeps with him. “I suppose my silence could have a price,” he says.


    Peter’s character backs away, saying: “You don’t mean … oh, no,” before Bond replies “Oh, yes”, pushes her into a sauna and takes off her clothes."



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Thanks @FunLover18 (what happened the other 17 of you? 😁)

    I recall very little of Thunderball outside the trailblazing underwater scenes... but honestly it's unhelpful and misguided for Fukunaga to speak of "rape" when whatever else went down in Goldfinger - it wasn't rape. Not by any definition I'm aware of TBH. There are conversations about consent, basic skuzzyness, and contextual romantic behaviour of cinema at the time ... but it wasn't full blown, sexual assault IMO. At least not what we see on screen; maybe Fukunaga is talking about the implied.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,000 ✭✭✭Mr Crispy


    Edit: Funlover covered it already.


    Not surprising given how much of a dickhead Fleming was. He wrote Pussy Galore as being a lesbian who "only needed the right man to come along … to cure her psycho-pathological malady".



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Ah, right Thunderball ain't great Yeah but ... Yikes, I hadn't known that about Fleming's writing of Galore. That's more than a bit shít. Surprised that doesn't get more air time, especially in this day and age. That was James Bond, the novels really: Fleming self inserting himself in a bunch of fantasy trips.

    But again. People. Pussy Galore. A lot of energy is spent defending a film series with character names beneath a Carry On. Or indeed deconstructing them, but that at least feels earned against where the world exists now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Having rewatched it back, it is rape, it’s clear from the build-up with the forced kiss that she’s not interested and then he essentially blackmails her into sleeping with him. They’re going for the she doesn’t want to but she really does trope but it’s poorly executed. If it was IRL she would 100% have a case. Anyway I do say all this as a Bond fan, and Connery is actually my favourite, but I don’t hold to this notion that as fans we can’t criticise or acknowledge the flaws of the thing we’re a fan of.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    the whole thing seems contrived trying to be offended by films form the 60's or that it should have any bearing on a film made today. Anyone in their 40's has only ever seen a Dalton, Brosnan or Craig Bond in the cinema and Dalton is arguably the most accurate representation of Bond, based on the books

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy


    Its not rape.

    Do you not see her fluttering her eyelashes at Bond just before they enter the sauna and she is even smiling when she says "Oh No you dont mean".

    She is obviously flirting with him, even in the earlier part of the scene when she says I can see there is only one way to keep you quiet Mr Bond.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    "But, your honour she, was fluttering her eyelids and smiling when she said no to my suggestion that she sleep with me to buy my silence".

    Flirting ≠ consent

    I'm not offended or trying to cancel Bond, I'm a fan but this is rape.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Criticism is not the same thing as offence. Nobody's offended. That's an unfair painting of a little retrospective reflection (broadly in good spirits here as well) as irrational bitterness or rage.

    There's no cancellation going on, just wonderment at how times change, what's was considered "charming" now hostile and nonconsensual. And that criticism can happily sit alongside an enjoyment of the film franchise as a whole; a little dissonance is healthy, and as myself and FunLover said we're still fans.

    I mean, by all accounts, if some here think it is nothing behaviour, they're free to try Bond's methods next time they're out on the pull. Share the results once they're released from jail 😁



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    it was more a comment on the director or whoever is bringing it up now and if this means it influenced choices in this film as an excuse for some kind of counter weight?

    A Bond film is not meant to be a dating manual for men but the fantasy element is if a particular man was the tip of the spear of a global reach spy organisation, who had frequent contact with counter spies & criminal organisations where manipulation was the name of the game then seduction would be part of this. I'd have to watch the old films again but Bond just hitting the nite clubs to pick up chicks wasnt a thing, the women were either Russian spies, or tended to be somehow connected to the villain of the film, so if he can kill them, seducing them is moot. The only difference im guessing from an old "Mills and Boom" books is that as Bond ia a fast pace spy film we dont watch the film from the female perspective as its not relevant anymore then we care about the thoughts and aspirations of the numerous people Bond kills in the films.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭Declan A Walsh


    As a James Bond fan, I am looking forward to seeing this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Is the rape of a meaningless side character worse than killing faceless goons and megalomaniacs with evil intentions? I would say the latter is expected in a Bond movie.

    Bond literally has a licence to kill and his murders and driving offences are always done in the service of his mission. Rape isn't. Honestly shocked I have to explain that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭eggy81




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    I literally just stated my opinion that is was rape and have merely defended that opinion from people who want me to be outraged when they themselves are the ones reaching for flimsy excuses like fluttering eyelids and playing whataboutery with his driving offences, give me a break.

    Bond is a multimillion dollar franchise and we're talking about a scene from the third movie of 25. Bond isn't going to be cancelled (even if I wanted it to which I don't) so what harm does it do to point out the problematic nature of Bond raping someone?



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The treatment of women in the JB series certainly reflected the times in how women were portrayed in a lot of media including print and TV- you only have to look at the “well respected” Michael Parkinson interview from the early 1970s with a very capable Helen Mirren to know just how badly women were treated and thought of in the arts by their male contemporaries. Totally worth watching from a cringfest perspective if you’ve never seen it

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gmlP_cFOoAM

    The first time from my own memory that the treatment of women changed in the JB series was The Living Daylights

    Just did a Google and found this article from 1987 which highlights the “one partner” for Bond, taking into account the AIDS crisis at the time- I remember this well as a big deal was made of this aspect in the press at the time.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-06-25-8702160902-story,amp.html

    I think both the Connery and the Moore years portrayed women as very submissive ultimately to “Bond” but the Connery years were far more aggressive- Connery’s Bond “took” the woman- Moore’s Bond seduced or sometimes chased the woman- submissiveness was always ultimately assumed in the Bond storylines of these times from a paying viewer perspective but the “chase” was portrayed differently, depending on what Bond version you were watching.


    Uncomfortable watching I have to admit in 2021 but we live in more enlightened times thankfully.

    On a similar theme, I grew up watching the 1968 film Oliver in the early 80s on TV- it was classed as a children’s programme. Years later as an adult, I happened across it playing on TV one day and it was incredibly violent, the way only a 1960s UK made film can be - certainly not something you wanted your own young people or those of your family watching in the 1990s and 2000s.

    It’s still a classic and powerful film but it hasn’t aged well - I would t “cancel” it but I also would t buy it for children’s viewing today- it’s of it’s time and that time has passed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    As I said I'm a fan of Bond and I'm well aware of the way the series has treated it's female characters. I don't see the problem with thinking it's not ideal to have your main protagonist (who is idolised by many) rape someone or seeing as it's 50 years too late, acknowledging that it's not a good look.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Seeing as this conversation has jumped the shark with mention of Bond's driving habits, I've always found this move particularly reckless.

    Any number of civilians could have been squashed by that over-large saloon car, never mind the falling rubble from the wall it burst through.


    The thing is, unlike Bond's dodgy treatment of women, nobody is going to be encouraged to emulate this particular move thinking if Bond can do it - it's Kool and the Gang.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Watching that video is a reminder of just how much of Helen Mirran's time in the Hollywood A-List has been spent as an older lady; to the extent that watching the (very cringe-inducing) Parkinson clip caused a double-take; of course she used to be a young woman. Obviously: but it's like seeing photos of young Morgan Freeman; I'm so used to him always being some older fella, it's almost bizarre to contemplate he was ever young.

    I remember Die Hard 5 was a particularly bad example of this: John McClane chases the bad guys in a truck (I think?), and the film gleefully showed our "hero" drive over and on-top of commuters' cars on the Russian motorway. Sometimes the collatoral damage is just too hard to ignore to simply "turn the brain off" as the saying goes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Ok we're agreed it's not ideal and yet you're still trying to justify it for some reason ...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy


    Its escapism, its fiction , there is artistic licence you know.

    Someone needs to tell the Bond producers that Bond cant break any laws in future.

    We will have a car chase at 60mph, no fighting, no shooting, no breaking and entering, no spying, no surveillance etc etc.

    Flirting will have to be removed too, dont want the Metoo movement interpreting Bonds actions incorrectly.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    As I've said before fighting and car chases are part of the formula (again Bond literally has a licence to kill) and there's usually some way that they're tied into the narrative.

    Honestly I really didn't think "Bond shouldn't rape people" would be this controversial an opinion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy


    No Bond shouldnt rape Women and he never did.

    Where you see rape most level headed people see consensual sex.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,508 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss



    I always found Solitaire and the rigged deck of tarot cards in Live and Let Die to be very dodgy. Even the first time I saw it (which would have been in the 90s long before meToo and such like) it didn't seem right. Fooling a clearly unstable woman into sex because she believes in what the cards tell her. I suspect it would be 'rape by deception' nowadays.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    Most level headed people would discuss the actual topic rather than deflecting with nonsense whataboutery. If you don't think it's rape, that's fine, we disagree and have different views on what counts as consent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy


    Premiere is tonight in London and the review embargo is lifted at midnight so we should have some reviews soon.



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    Here is the scene in question- I don’t see “rape” - it’s formulaic Connery Bond seduction 101- you mightn’t like it from a 2021 lens perspective but it is what it is- she has half a smile on her face moving into that steam room - she was playing a “hard to get “ character- and he got her- because he’s James Bond- I think calling this a “rape” scene is very over the top- he forcibly kissed her in the opening scene- she backed off from him - she’s a nurse- she’s used to such behaviour and she tries to remain professional - it’s a badly scripted scene but it’s not a “rape” scene- for a 60s audience they would have known that Bond wouldn’t tell and she wanted to go into the steam room- that’s how they would have read that scene-and there’s plenty more of these type of scenes all accross the JB series- tricks, force, seduction whatever - it was called entertainment back in the day - I think you really need to get out more if you’re reading this as a “rape” scene.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tbZGN1WQ_Ms



  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    M: Your license to kill has been revoked. So too has your license to cause mayhem on the roads, or to park anywhere you want. The insurance company refused to insure any car you drive with an engine larger than a mini, so your new car is waiting for you downstairs. A mini Cooper in racing green. Now, you have 36 hours to stop nuclear war with China but first you have to sit a course in cultural appropriation, and sexual harassment in the workplace. Good luck 007.


    Sounds like a blockbuster to me.



  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I dont think it was rape either. Is that whataboutery too?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy




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  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Actually theres a series I really like called Bulletproof, which follows two cops on various adventures. Their National Crime Agency-assigned car got totalled so many times they were actually given a Mini.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy


    A pride coloured mini might be a good nod too, lots of Police cars in Uk decked out in those colours nowadays.

    Would be very inconspicuous for undercover work.




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    No of course not. The whataboutery I'm referring to is the people literally saying what about his dangerous driving and killing as if they're somehow comparable.

    I feel like people want me to be outraged when I'm not. I think that particular scene is an instance of Bond raping someone. I think the Bond franchise has treated its female characters poorly and has muddied the line between seduction and rape in some cases (as proven by our disagreement) and I think it can do better; that doesn't mean changing the whole franchise. I know these internet discussions usually involve people from two extremes yelling at each other but I really don't think that's too extreme a viewpoint.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,793 ✭✭✭FunLover18


    I think there is an issue when a so-called hero that young people look up to rapes someone or treats women the way Bond has done in the past. We disagree, let's leave it at that.



  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think that particular scene is an instance of Bond raping someone. I think the Bond franchise has treated its female characters poorly and has muddied the line between seduction and rape in some cases (as proven by our disagreement) and I think it can do better;

    Fair enough. But that scene is in a movie from 1964. Its 57 years old. As a franchise it has changed and has improved, somewhat, its treatment of women. It has introduced women into stronger roles, like M and the "new" Miss Moneypenny.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,064 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    So what are we to do but PSA in front of everything that we now consider (and rightly) bad. Maybe scrub them entirely from the films or TV programs. Or maybe just maybe we can believe the people who watch these films know it is what it is


    Now I don't think you are trying to cancel Bond or any other film or TV series before #MeToo I believe your motive is to show how you are a new and approved being who is able to talk about these things and rightly give judgement unlike all these others here.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,064 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Not going to lie does not look too bad. I would give a double take



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,064 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    I am sorry if fans of James bond do not know what he is a male shovinistic pig then they need to do research in to there hero. Also if people don't realise movies of an era will show the morals of the day they also need to do research



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,297 ✭✭✭✭AMKC
    Ms


    Premiere on soon in London. Just watching Sky News now and Daniel is wearing pink and looking smashing.

    I have my tickets booked for the weekend. Can't wait to see it.

    Live long and Prosper

    Peace and long life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭mrcheez




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭mrcheez


    Admittedly it does look comfy



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Is the pink jacket supposed to be some nod to the female double-0 agent?

    ffs, horrific

    He looks like a couch like someone said in the comments

    This has turd written all over it

    Reviews for the 163 minute movie out after midnight



  • Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭TXPTGR1


    Wonder if craig will finally wear clothes that fit him in this installmement.

    craig bonds really have not been that great not expecting that to change here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,666 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    is the media review blackout common for bond films? normally it means they are worried about the reviews , on the bright side Sky seemed to have removed all their reports from petrol stations to cover the premier

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Its been 50/50 for me. Casino Royale and SkyFall I thought were were terrific. Spectre was instantly forgettable. And Quantum of Solace was just a mess.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,173 ✭✭✭Declan A Walsh


    The best Daniel Craig outing was Skyfall. The others were okay.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ???

    Casino Royale was way ahead of any of the other ones

    Skyfall had that ending that was supposed to elicit a tear for Judy Dench but which just ended up being silly

    Quantum of Solace has actually aged well and I'd have it in second place



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,064 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    Daniel Craig was on Graham Norton last weekend and saying they were keeping an extra tight lid on the film due to how many times it was pushed back that it will look like it is a bad movie but they were making sure nothing would be released until it was closer to premier date. Was it not meant to be november at some point



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,717 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Blockbusters regularly have embargoes of just a day or two before release, not a sign of anything tbh other than a hype building exercise. Absolutely nothing unusual here, especially since this darn film is being hyped up as the ‘film that’ll save multiplexes’ so they’re clearly just working to maximise exposure.

    It’s the films that don’t get press screenings at all that you want to watch out for.



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