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Formula 1 2021 - General Discussion Thread (Read 1st post rules)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭ Charlie-Bravo


    Can anybody explain how the pit stops are creating errors when they don't look like there are any errors apart from the lights not releasing this car.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭ barryribs


    Its a concerted effort to stop Max Verstappen winning the championship, orchestrated by Toto and Hamilton who lobbied for the rule change because red bull were faster than them at pitstops. This was the direct cause of the slow pit stop for Max in Monzo

    Or in reality is that there is a .2 second delay between the time the wheel gun is released and the light can turn green, which still means the faster teams will have faster pit stops. Horner has admitted the stop in Monza was a human error as a result of the new technical directive. What I suspect from watching it is the guy on the front right did not follow the correct procedure so the light did not turn to green after the delay.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭ Hijpo


    It's a weird one, there doesn't see to be any consistency to the state of the two panels in the pit box.

    As he enters the pit box, on the panel the mechanic was holding the left light (red/stop) was illuminated and on the overhead panel the right light (green/go) was illuminated. Which would appear to be incorrect?

    When they realise something is wrong both panels go off, the jack man is signalled to drop the car and the panels come back on in the same state.


    Now, looking back on other pit stops sometimes those lights seem to be out of sequence also.

    Anyone know what that's about?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,668 ✭✭✭ quokula


    Because the lights that didn’t release the car only exists because of the new rules. Previously Red Bull just put the tyres on and as soon as they were on they immediately got a green light and went. They were more efficient at this than their rivals, who typically had a 0.2 second or more delay in their reaction times at this point in the pitstop.

    Mercedes didn’t like that Red Bull were so quick, put in a complaint, and the rules were changed out of the blue mid season so there now needed to be a 0.2 second delay between putting the tyres on and going, or else there would be a penalty. The light that didn’t change was the one that artificially inserts that 0.2 second delay into what was previously an extremely well oiled and heavily practiced process, and for whatever reason it went wrong and didn’t update as it should have and left them stranded.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭ Charlie-Bravo


    It's shitehawk stuff by Mercedes. Can't win with the same tools, so just get them to change the rules.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭ barryribs


    As the sport has always been. Whether it is tyre thread width measurements, double diffusers, blown diffusers, mass dampers, blown exhausts, team radio protocols, fric suspension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭ barryribs


    The only difference is the team looking for the changes are no longer red.

    I agree with your second point, the rules at the start of the season should be binding, for better or worse. If a team gains an advantage because they are able to comply with the rules and still gain an advantage then it should be up to the other teams to deal with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭✭ flazio




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭ Charlie-Bravo


    Yes, as said above by another, I also like the ingenuity aspect of F1. The more innovation, the more I'm interested. Less protests please.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,850 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Ut depends on whether the innovation is visible or not though. I doubt anyone was looking at pitstops and marveling at how automates the process had become and how they had removed so much human skill and speed from the equation. All we sat was that pitstops had become very fast and pretty much the same in length to within a coupe of tenths.

    I thought it was a bit of a fuss about nothing to make the changes, but the reaction to it was a classic knee -jerk f1 fan anti-change reaction.

    In terms of the pitstops, bed bull had marginally faster pitstops. Mercedes wer ealmost exactly the same but their mean was throw out by 2 ballsed up pitstops that took 10 seconds each.

    But I'm fine with them not spending millions of pounds to automate the pitstops and make them a tenth or two faster and basically all the same. Shouldn't there be skill on the potstop and more room for human error and more room for variation between pitstop times?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,716 ✭✭✭ Burkie1203


    Shouldn't there be a skill in driving the car and not relying on engineers telling you what to do and how to do it? So much of the human skill has been removed from driving with engineering advances.

    We already had plenty of human error in pit stops.



    Bottas/Danny Ric in Monaco

    Hamilton in Germany

    Russell in Bahrain

    Nearly every Haas stop over a few races a few years ago results in a cross thread retirement.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,850 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Yes. There should be less interference from the pitwall and it should be more about the driver doing their job. Likewise it should be on the pitstop people to signal when they've done their job rather than having it automated and preempting when they will have their jobs completed. There nothing for me or you to appreciate in the software doing that work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,890 ✭✭✭ muckwarrior


    At the end of the day it's humans who stop the car on its marks, jack it up, remove one set of wheels, attach a new set, drop the car, and take off. Seeing all that happen in under 2 seconds is impressive as hell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,850 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Well I'd agree except the FIA determined that humans can't possibly do it in under 2 seconds without the software preempting when they would have their jobs done to release the car. That was the exact point of the ruling (the point about whether they could do it in under 2 seconds without the software preempting the jobs being done).

    Now, it didn't seem to have any actual negative effect so I didn't see the need for a rule change but the point seems to have been that they have to do these jobs themselves rather than having a computer predict when the jobs will be done.

    It's similar to saying that it would be impressive to let the sprinters use whatever substances they want and see them run the 100m in 8.5 seconds. But the rules say they cant and likewise the rules say the pitcrew have to signal when their job is complete and not have a computer do it for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,457 ✭✭✭✭ MadYaker


    A Dutch website www.netherlandsnewslive.com has quoted Helmut Marko saying RB may replace Max’s engine at Sochi but they’re going to wait for qualifying and look at the weather forecast before making a decision. He didn’t seem to mention the other grid penalty. I think they’ll do it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,704 ✭✭✭✭ klose


    I've seen alot of screenshotsof of weather forecasts varying from rain to washout conditions on twitter today for sochi, if redbull gave max a new engine and there was another Spa type scenario with a cancelled race and half points awarded it would be a well played move.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭✭ flazio


    The surrounding forest was a big factor in conditions not clearing in Spa. Remember it wasn't actually monsoon conditions like what we've seen in Asian rounds. It was just persistent rain with no chance of draining away.

    Any other track on the calendar with those exact same weather conditions would get a race going. Even Hockenheim. (although the old track might be questioned) Unless it's monsoon conditions, we should be OK for a wet race.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,457 ✭✭✭✭ MadYaker


    In light of the statement they released after Spa I don't think the FIA will award any points without some sort of racing taking place so it could be no points for anybody if its a total washout. That would still be good for RB if they do decide to replace it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,850 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Yeah I'd say you're right about that. Unless they could do a serious attempt at racing then they won't do that again.

    But here's a question. If max took a penalty and they don't do the race, would the penalty roll over to the next actual race?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 396 ✭✭ barryribs


    Whitmarsh joining Aston Martin, with Otmar reporting to him. I think it was inevitable that there was going to be some changes within the team given their performance this year. I wouldn't be surprised to see Otmar moved on at the end of the year with Whitmarsh taking over as CEO and team principle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,783 ✭✭✭ Frank Bullitt


    So Honda have introduced a new battery pack, and for sometime now. And I thought Merc were sneaky!

    Sounds like it is lighter, more efficient and yields more power!



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,850 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    In fairness, its not sneaky so much as its using an upgrade much later than Mercedes. Merc was organised enough to use the upgrade at the start of the year. Ferrari had the engine cheating stuff in 2018 so their programme was set back as they had to design a whole new engine. Honda has always been playing catch up and they designed a brand new engine for this year too. So they're just late introducing their full allowance of new engine parts.

    Ferrari will only get the last few races of the year out of their newest parts where Mercedes are getting the whole 2021 season out of theirs.

    Great news for a Max fan or anyone who wants to see a change from Hamilton winning again.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,783 ✭✭✭ Frank Bullitt


    Thought Merc only introduced theirs a few races ago?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,850 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    I thought they used their allocations at the start of the season but i could be wrong. There are a few different components and different schedules for different parts of the engine (ice, MGU K and H).

    I saw a list of components and which ones everyone took. I'll see if I can find it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,783 ✭✭✭ Frank Bullitt


    There are other areas that teams can still improve their PU, software plays a part so it might have been that. I remember a comment about derating at the end of straights.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,850 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Fair enough. Software and thst kind of thing is probably a whole industry in itself. I don't think that was covered by the components allowances.

    I remember Honda made some big changes for reliability reasons before the summer break. That would give them performance gains as they could run the engine harder because of the better reliability.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,850 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    I feel Taylor and Virgo are just familiar at this stage. I don't think they're any better commentators than the whole load of younger players coming through. Some a not good, but the ones that are good are as good as the two old boys. Mcmanus gives good technical insights, Hendry is very critical and Ken offers good positive chit-chat.

    Nothing wrong with promoting the younger lads and getting rid of dead wood. Taylor is like an old version of Ken offering nice chit-chat but his references are 30 years out of date. He comes across as a sound man but miles out of date for the job. I don't think Virgo was ever that great as a commentator. But he was familiar.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,051 ✭✭✭✭ flazio




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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,850 ✭✭✭✭ El_Duderino 09


    Yeah his enthusiasm was infectious. I started following in 1998 and by that stage he was getting very confused and made it hard to follow at times. He was still good but he would never have gotten the gig in the first place if he was mixing up drivers and teams and all the rest.

    But he's iconic. Nothing wrong with moving on, even from a legend like Walker, when their time has passed.

    Just realised this is in the wrong thread! Meant to post about the commentators I the snooker thread. Ah, it might as well stay here know.



This discussion has been closed.
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