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Will racism ever end?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,280 ✭✭✭ Fandymo


    Another thread ruined by the usual suspects, and nothing done by Boards to stop it. No wonder it was hemorrhaging users pre-Vanilla and continues to do so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭ seenitall


    I remember at the height of Destiny’s Child fame, I read an article about them and their brand, describing how, since Beyonce was the lead etc. she demanded to always look the “fairest” in all the promo photos of the three girls. Chuckle. Internalised racism, anyone? Anyhow, it wasn’t that controversial at the time, but I can only guess at the hoollaballoo that would follow such an article these days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,045 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne


    Well sure in a world where it's acceptable to call Larry Elder the "black face of white supremacy", it's plain to see that racism and accusations of racism has become so weaponised by certain groups to smear people they disagree with on social and political matters.

    The fact that someone dressed as a gorilla threw eggs at a black political candidate went relatively under the radar because of what side of the political divide the people involved were aligned with.

    The coverage of such an incident would be vastly different if the political sides were swapped.

    Racism is a scourge but the people who use racism as a handy tool to falsely accuse others of racism or who go out of their way to invent racism, be it for virtue signalling or to add heft to their opinions, are also abhorrent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,537 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    There has for a long time been considerable pressure on black and darker skin toned celebrities to lighten their skin. Either using skin products or in retouching the photos of them published.

    I believe the pressure to lighten her skin for Beyonce is rumoured to have come from her father and the bands manager.

    It is wrong for the media or anyone to push the idea that darker skin is not attractive. The retouching of darker celebrities to lighten their skin tone does increase pressure on young darker skin toned people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭ seenitall


    I find it hilariously funny that for such a seemingly empowered, proudly black woman, etc. this was in fact what was going on behind the scenes. Moreso as I really dislike her arrogant style of communication with her fans (at least in her “Bow down, bitches” phase, dunno if she still goes on like that). Her whole attitude screams distasteful entitlement. So the story is just pure lols.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,537 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    I don't really follow Beyonce's career but there might be considerable difference between the stage managed persona presented and the real person. Never the less, the societal pressure to lighten skin tones has been well reported at this stage.

    Here is an article from this year about images of Beyonce being retouched to make her appear paler not from the person herself but from the publisher of a magazine she was featured on. And I hope we can agree that is wrong and presents the wrong image to young impressionable fans.




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    That whole "diva" stuff is part of Black American culture and it's a complex enough thing. African American women were largely absent from mainstream culture save for "big mamma" servant stereotypes in Hollywood and Tom & Jerry cartoons and their beauty was never mainstream. Even their natural hair has been tweaked with treatments and rarely seen in the natural state, save for a short period in the late 60's and early 70's. Black women's hair is a debate in of itself. African American men have and continue to be feared, but they're also also fetishised and are far more mainstream in US culture(and beyond). Hell, if you go looking for interracial porn, what are you expecting to see? It's far less likely to be Black woman with White or Asian man. Intermarraige also follows a similar pattern. We even see this in advertising. Where an interracial couple is present you'd not lose much money betting it'll be a White woman with a Black man. So an African American woman like Beyonce is very much aware of this bias and lack of visibility in the mainstream.

    As for lightening of skin tones: As Robbie notes this has long been in play. In US culture it goes back to slavery days where there were "House Negros" and "Field Negros", the former selected for their paler skin(often a result of rape by slavers in previous generations), so they were seen as "better" and "worse" depending on the viewer. This in turn is yet another example of the richer in many cultures and not just White favouring pale skin as a sign of wealth and status. That Coco Chanel in the 1920's after a holiday in the Cote D'Azur was able to turn that on its head and make tanning fashionable among the great and the good was actually one of the biggest shifts in beauty perception in human history.

    Interestingly when uncontacted tribes have first seen White people they tended to freak them right out. To many such cultures the dead are thought of as White, so to them they were looking at zombies.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,633 ✭✭✭✭ eagle eye


    For the most part I look at racist comments as just stupidity and ignorance.

    There are those who use it for their agendas. They need to be shut down. Similarly you have those with agendas who take every opportunity to label people racist, they need to be shut down too.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    Yup. It's long been known in that trade that a cover with a Black model will consistently sell fewer copies than one with a White model. Asian models would be somewhere in the middle. What's sadder is that magazines aimed at Black women will also show a bias towards lighter skinned cover models.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,537 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    You cannot reduce racism to just stupidity and ignorance certainly not in the modern world. It is definitely used by some who wish it to be deliberately divisive and to create divisions within society. It is much easier to control the poor when they are fighting each other and the differences there are at skin colour level than looking at who really creates many of the problems in the world.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭ seenitall


    Sure, but if there was anyone who’d no place complaining about the lack of visibility (at that stage of her career, of course), it’s surely Beyoncé, any more than would her friend Gwyneth or any other Hollywood/entertainment luvvies have any, either. So what does she go and do with all this visibility, fame and strong black woman power shtick? Oh yes, despite talking the good talk, she just sticks to the stereotype of “the whiter, the better” for her photos, no intention of upsetting the apple cart whatsoever. That’s the hypocrisy of it, although of course, reading about the context you describe, I suppose it makes financial sense alright! And that’s the bottom line.

    ETA: I suppose contrast that with the almighty stink that Kate Winslet raised after being photoshopped to look thinner for a magazine cover recently.

    Post edited by seenitall on


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,462 ✭✭✭✭ Tell me how


    If two white people are standing at a bus stop and make a racist joke containing the N word and there is a black person in earshot who feels like the word was used as an insult to them, would you believe that would constitute hate speech and should be punishable?

    Intentionally or otherwise, I think this question is somewhat misleading. just to clarify There is no law that is prosecuted simply on the basis of one persons desire that it should be done. If there was, there'd be a hell of a lot more cases before the courts for rape/sexual assault.

    Say the scenario happened, someone would have to report it, it would have to be investigated and a decision made whether to pursue a prosecution or not. There's a lot of different factors that would come in to play with potential for what actually happened to be either end of the scale such as the two white people talking quietly amongst themselves, not even aware there was a black person there and one of them tells the joke to the other. I wouldn't suggest a prosecution should be pursued in this instance. But, if the two white people were standing there, saying nothing, and the black person walked up and one of the white people looked deliberately at them and got their attention and then loudly to their friend so that the black person, and anyone else in the vicinity could hear, what was being said, told the joke and laughed towards the black person, then possibly, yes, a prosecution should be pursued but again as an outcome of it being investigated appropriately. And there's many other ways this scenario could play out trending towards one end of the extreme or the other.

    Those arguing against legislation to help limit such events imply that it is likely that in all instances, just because one person claims the comments were deliberately aimed at them, that a conviction will be the outcome when there is no evidence that this will be the case, either with respect to this topic, or any other legislation on the books. In fact, the burden of responsibility at play in the judicial system favours heavily towards the accused rather than the accuser.

    Now, given the scenario as outlined above, do you think the behaviour of the two white people should be punishable if it were to happen in the second scenario as I outlined?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭ Hector Savage


    Good point why is it ALWAYS a white woman and black man in adds ?

    I just want to see a black woman and white man for you know , eh ... DIVERSITY ???



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,445 ✭✭✭✭ Strumms


    This, there will always be racism.

    there will always be too other deplorable things in our society like...

    murder, assault, rape, drink driving, corruption, bullying, fraud, extortion.. it’s not human nature but just the nature of some shît humans... you can educate, deter.... but hey you can’t program people...or tune them to a frequency that they don’t want to be tuned to.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,537 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    But you can also just like rape, murder, drink driving etc make racism a criminal offence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,445 ✭✭✭✭ Strumms


    Racism waa a crime i thought.

    Proving it would be difficult in most cases... racism is discrimination that comes in multiple forms...

    Rape , murder, drink driving are black and white...

    I could discriminate against a person because i dislike their personality... nothing illegal there.. however if they are of a differing ethnicity and accuse me of whatever dislike or snub being racially motivated. . . Id have a case to answer..



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,537 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    Race is one of the 9 grounds upon which you cannot discriminate already under the equal status act.

    But racism itself is not a crime. And the Dept of Justice has proposed introducing legislation to deal with this but has not yet produced a bill.



  • Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭ hcf500


    Sadly, trump was a major asset to bigots and racists. He did so much damage in just 4 years. Its a relief that there are adults back in the white house again but I feel it will take decades to repair the divisiveness he has caused. Remember, this was a man that said neo nazis and white supremacists were fine people!



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,045 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne


    He also said a heartfelt and complimentary eulogy at the funeral of Sen. Robert Byrd, a former Exalted Cyclops in the Ku Klux Klan, saying he was “one of my mentors” and that “the Senate is a lesser place for his going.”

    Oh wait... no he didn't.

    I think it's wrong to to blame trump for increasing divisiveness in America. America was always a racial powderkeg, under every president.

    What is divisive though is dishonestly quoting someone in an attempt to show them as racist, like you just did.

    Post edited by the dunne on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭ alan partridge aha


    I'm pretty sure Donald Trump never specifically targets these two groups and said they were fine people.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,045 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne


    It's a little dishonest.

    People use the quote "you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides." as a tool to prove that trump supported white supremacists and nazis at the rally.

    But what they fail to mention is that about 5 sentences later he said:

    "And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly"

    Its so silly because you have literally thousands of actual quotes to make trump look bad, yet they revert to misrepresenting him.

    It's a trait which is used a lot on this thread



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,280 ✭✭✭ Fandymo


    No he didn’t, but you know this. Can’t believe some people are still suffering from Trump Derangement Syndrome. He really got into your head.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    For someone like Trump to have garnered enough support to go from "celebrity" property developer to president of the US shows quite clearly that the divisiveness was already very much in play in American culture. Hardly a shock mind you.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 26 Manky O Toole


    Why are white liberals so neurotic and obsessed with race?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,537 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber




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