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Will racism ever end?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,462 ✭✭✭✭ Tell me how


    So when they protest, it is said that they should do something different such as focus on Social media. When they do that, they are told that it is virtue signalling and that it wasn't a boycott because they came back.

    So, what you want is for them to protest racism by staying quiet and out of sight?

    Do you realise just how this sounds?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,462 ✭✭✭✭ Tell me how


    That's it really. Just because there will always be some inclined to practice racism, doesn't mean we should shrug our shoulders and say there is nothing we can do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 58,873 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Wibbs


    The UK looked like one of the least racist countries? Looked like doesn't even cut it and in the pretty recent past. It was certainly more overt in the past alright, but the undercurrent was there and it wasn't too much under the surface either. The Black and White minstrel show was going into the late 70's, "jokes" against minorities were a staple of Sunday night family viewing on TV and one of their MP's Enoch Powell was raving about dire warnings of blood in the streets because of Black immigrants. There have been more than a few race riots in the place because of how the Black community felt they were being treated. Never mind the dissent all the way up to terrorist actions because of similar felt in the Asian community(IE those from the Indian sub continent). This came out in jokes by more enlightened comedians.


    During the 1980's and beyond there was a concerted effort towards education and legislation, a deep dive through police forces and the like to lessen the overt stuff and more "politically correct" media, but as the recent British BLM marches showed the old attitudes are still very much in play.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭ Fandymo




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭ Fandymo


    Some serious twisting going on, as predicted.

    I've never said, or insinuated that "what you(i) want is for them to protest racism by staying quiet and out of sight"

    The Premier League stated that they would be staging a 4 day blackout. That is not a boycott. It is as pointless as taking the knee.

    If you were in your local supermarket, and on a number of occasions you saw different members of staff racially abusing people, do you think that telling the owner that you and your family wouldn't be in for a set 4 day period due to racism, but after that, it'll be business as usual, would really bother the racist members of staff. It'll have zero effect on their profits, it'll have zero effect on them whatsoever.

    Now, if you organised and got the village behind you and actually boycotted the store, management would have to do something. It would hit them in the pocket and force them. Footballers, celebs etc coming out and stating "we will not use this platform until ID requirements are massively improved, and every user/abuser is identifiable by the service, and subsequently by the Gardai/Police/Cops if they break the law", and repeating this while not using the platform, wouldn't be staying quiet or out of sight. It would be the very opposite of staying quiet and out of sight. And within weeks there would be real, viable, changes made to help stamp out a lot of the racial and other abuse received on these platforms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    Except that that wasn't the logic I was referring to. Nice try though.

    I responded to what you wrote.

    As with the the dunne, if you are watching people who are being racially targeted do an act specifically to call attention to them bein targeted in that way, and they are the ones you have the issue with, then there isn't much room for interpreting what that means.

    Except that wasn't what you said earlier. Many of the players and other who took the knee weren't racially targeted, so the previous point stands. But sure, go ahead, and shift the goalposts after people have replied to you... that makes perfect sense.

    Funny how all the threads that are started on such topics are started with a view that those calling for action are SJW's or the likes. Time and again here the focus, and probably most of the individual contributors to threads are of a mindset against a cause rather than calling for support for one.

    The funny thing is that you've just done what you accuse others of doing. Ahh irony.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    The only people unaware of racism in soccer were likely people who are not interested in soccer, and will continue not to be interested in soccer. They'll say "oh that's terrible", and then switch attention to something else.

    Anyone who has been to a soccer match in the UK, Spain or Italy, will be very aware of the sentiments of many "fans" in expressing or acting out racist biases. Same with anyone who simply watches tv and sees the sports commentary... there have been heaps of incidents in soccer for most people to be aware of what's been going on.

    It hasn't "worked". It's still an empty gesture, except for the virtue signalling connections.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    I don't think anyone is suggesting that we should. We have laws in society to regulate the behavior of people, along with the conditioning to hopefully reduce such negative behavior. I'd say that aggression and violence is part of being human, but we have many ways of reducing the impact of those human expressions... just as we would with racism. Murder will continue as long as people exist. So too will racism continue to exist. We want to have laws, and conditioning to minimize both from happening.

    The sad thing about racism though is this movement where the people advocating against racism are so intent in excusing their own bigotry, or expressing racism when it suits their agendas.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    What should people opposed to racism in soccer do that is not an empty gesture then?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭ klaz



    Honestly, I don't know.

    I think it would be better to bring pressure on the football organisations, and the stadium owners, to supply life-time bans (open to appeals) for those who obviously engage in racist comments/violence. Post up clear guidelines in stadiums showing what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, and then charge/fine those who break the guidelines.

    I'd say that one of the reasons that so much racism exists among fans, is the way that violence, and loutish behavior has been allowed to continue. One thing feeds into the other. Start weeding out those who cause such trouble, and the remainder will catch on quickly to avoid losing their own access to the games.

    edit: Just to add, I stopped going to matches in the UK a few years ago, because I was sick of all the agro going on. Too many times, I had to duck into a pub, or shop to avoid a mob of supporters hell-bent on causing trouble. It just takes too much away from the sport, and that's what should be tackled first, as these are the people who will feel that they can get away with being racist.. because they've gotten away with being violent for decades.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber



    I agree the clubs and uefa fifa can do so much more but they are corrupt or driven by greed.

    But knowing that and having to operate within that structure what can the players do?

    Do you believe in non violent protest as means to an end?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne


    Educate their children that nobody is better or worse than the other by virtue of their ethnicity.

    Teach them that you shouldn't accept being told your ethnicity gives you an advantage or a disadvantage.

    To ignore bigots and to acknowledge that while some people will insult and disparage them because of something they can't change, society doesn't agree with them.

    Teach children that they are more than their ethnicity and never to play the race card.

    Teach kids that there will be virtue signalling dicks that will try to convince you they are a victim.

    Not assign every negative comment or insult to racism.

    Treat people equally.

    That's just a couple of things off the top of my head. Granted, they are all about teaching children stuff, but that's the majority of my experience in combating racism.


    What's yours? Apart from telling people that by not kneeling or booing kneeling that they are racists.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    Football players should teach their children all these things to stop the racist abuse?



    People like the OP who's wife was subject to racist abuse should teach their children?



    How does that stop the OP's wife from being subject to abuse or the football players being abused?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,222 ✭✭✭✭ the dunne


    Oh right, sorry Robbie, what's your idea again?

    Telling people that unless they agree with what you believe, then they are racist?

    I'm all ears Robbie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    Well that's a silly post isn't it dunne as I have never said such a thing.

    You posted about education. So please enlighten me how does the op teaching his children stop his wife being racially abused?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah Robbie!

    obviously the OP should teach his wife to stop playing the race card, everyone gets abuse!

    also she should stop complaint and playing the victim, sure everyone gets abuse.

    basically 🙄



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    No bubblypop your wrong if Premier league footballers educate their children instead of taking the knee then the OP's wife won't get abused by racists.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    I agree the clubs and uefa fifa can do so much more but they are corrupt or driven by greed.

    Which is why the taking of the knee is such an empty gesture. Since they're driven by greed, the organisations involved should be hit where it hurts, with a boycott of subscriptions, or match tickets, with the clear message of an expectation for change to occur.

    However, I doubt there would be much actual support from fans/supporters, and it would just fizzle. Easier to make empty gestures that lead nowhere.

    But knowing that and having to operate within that structure what can the players do?

    Players? Boycott teams that don't speak out against the behavior of their fans, and who won't police their behavior somewhat... but again, players will look to the money earned as opposed to committing themselves to changing anything. The players are enabling the teams, and the organisations to continue as they've always done... which is to ignore what's goes on in the stands, except when it costs them money, or someone dies (and even then, things revert to what they were before after a short amount of time)

    Do you believe in non violent protest as means to an end?

    Dunno where that came from. Weren't my suggestions non-violent?

    Yes, I do.. although sometimes action speaks louder than words, and those actions show a commitment that peaceful protest often doesn't represent.

    I suppose the difference between us, is that I like to see a reasonable chance of a positive outcome being produced from such protests. The taking of the knee goes nowhere, because it doesn't do anything or send any definite message to those who engage in racism. The taking of the knee appeals to those who aren't racist... and so, it's a wasted effort (although there's no actual effort involved, which is part of the problem). I'd prefer to see some initiatives that directly sought to deal with actual racists..

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    Robbie, I think you're being a bit unreasonable here. Both I and @the dunne answered your question, and you've simply come back with more questions... without committing yourself to your own question, or even dealing with what we've written. Instead, it's just another wave of questions.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    I never understand this need of yours to misrepresent what was said by posters throughout a thread.

    "Basically" 🙄

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,335 ✭✭✭✭ Rothko


    When did anyone say that?

    Why do you feel the constant need to twist words and put words in someone's mouth? Do you not feel that it's a bit unreasonable?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    It isn't the Premier league clubs fans that are guilty of much racism inside the grounds. Pl grounds are very well policed and bans are handed out for racism and other anti social behaviour already.

    Fifa and uefa are corrupt and they will not go against the member organisations ie football clubs that elect the members of their organisations.

    So if PL clubs aren't the main issue with racism how would their players boycotting the games of the clubs that pay them help.

    They do however have some of the most media attention so by using the power of the media spotlight on them they can draw much more attention to the issue they see.

    Are they wrong to use their media presence to draw attention to such social issues. It takes less than 30 seconds at the start of a game and it highlights an issue of concern to them.

    All footballers are not forced to do this they can choose to participate or not. So what really is the issue?

    It is obviously drawing attention because neither you or I are big posters in the soccer forum but yet here we are talking about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    🤔

    Eh you just quoted my post where i said it. So someone did say it. It was me.


    Are you confusing things here and accusing me of saying someone else said it. Because where did I say anyone else said it?


    This is after hours after all are we not allowed a bit of craic.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,613 ✭✭✭ RobbieTheRobber


    Huh.

    This thread was created by the op who's wife was racially abused.

    So I don't understand Dunnes waflly post about education. Who should be educated. Because educating the OP's wife won't help.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,363 ✭✭✭ Fandymo


    By the same token, how does footballers kneeling stop the OPs wife being racially abused?? Enlighten us Robbie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    There's having fun, and then.... there's sly digs. You should know the difference, and I suspect you do. However, you'll still go with the sly dig.

    It isn't the Premier league clubs fans that are guilty of much racism inside the grounds. Pl grounds are very well policed and bans are handed out for racism and other anti social behaviour already.

    haha... seriously? There's craptons of racist behavior at most of the premier league games.. within the fan areas. Never mind what happens directly outside the stadiums after certain games.

    So if PL clubs aren't the main issue with racism how would their players boycotting the games of the clubs that pay them help.

    Because it sends the same message that the other leagues/teams will understand, and perhaps provide some momentum to a movement within the soccer community.

    Are they wrong to use their media presence to draw attention to such social issues. It takes less than 30 seconds at the start of a game and it highlights an issue of concern to them. All footballers are not forced to do this they can choose to participate or not. So what really is the issue?

    You've just stepped backwards ignoring/dismissing what I'd said about taking the knee... and no, I'm not going to follow you there. I'm not terribly surprised though.. since you'd prefer to focus entirely on taking the knee, as opposed to a more general conversation about racism.

    It is obviously drawing attention because neither you or I are big posters in the soccer forum but yet here we are talking about it.

    The thread title is "Will racism ever end". Not "will racism end in soccer". So, we're talking about it because the thread is about racism. In any case, the point I made earlier about the taking of the knee still remain valid... the only people who care, are the people who already watch soccer... anyone else will give ten seconds of their attention, and move back to looking at whatever gossip is elsewhere.

    As for the soccer forum, I have no interest in discussing soccer with people on the internet. If we were in a pub, I might be interested, although probably I wouldn't.. because I just like to watch the games. Oddly enough, I know quite a few people similar to myself who enjoy the games and the competition, without everything else that comes with it. Oh... and I'm already interested in discussing racism, because I'm interested in social issues.. and have been discussing racism long before BLM or anything associated with it, came along.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,754 ✭✭✭✭ klaz


    He quoted you.. and answered your question.

    After 7 pages, it's pretty likely what someone posts, is not directly related to what the OP said.

    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle 



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