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Too many people would have to keep it a secret...

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  • Registered Users Posts: 382 ✭✭Unicorn Milk Latte


    As for hating conspiracies: one project that I proudly completed during the last year was re-watching all 11 seasons of The X-Files. Loved it.


    When I look at conspiracies presented on this forum, and on some of the conspiracy sites linked from here, I often ask myself: why do they have to be so flipping stupid?

    George Floyd is alive, and his killing was staged by crisis actors?? These idiotic racists can't even come up with an entertaining conspiracy. No humour either.

    Don't get me started on the vaccine nonsense. Religious Right fools - if god wants my kid to die, I should let it die, not give it medication - going mainstream, with slightly modified messaging.

    Seriously, why do so many conspiracy theorists have be so blatantly stupid and unimaginative?? Give me a Chupacabra. Black Oil. Alien abductions with rectal probes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    But again it's been explained to you many times. You keep pretending to not see those posts or questions. You ignore them and run away.

    You've been shown that paper items survive plane crashes.

    You've been show that many perishable items have survived the planes on 9/11.

    you agree that these things happened.


    At the same time you bury your head and ignore the issues with the alternative explanation you have to subscribe to.

    You don't want to directly state that you believe the government planted the passport because you understand that such a thing is **** idiotic. It's as dumb as the theories you're ranting about. It's as dumb as what Marky there believes about space and the shape of the earth.

    By all means keep ignoring things. It shreds your credibility every time. It shows that all you conspiracy theorists can do to defend your beliefs is to plug your ears and cry.

    It's hilarious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,701 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Drivel.

    Items survived at the crash sites. The below piece of paper survived when flight 93 plunged straight into the ground at high speed with a large explosion and fireball at Shanksville

    And these items

    Another hijackers passport

    Perishable items survived not just the plane impacts but also the towers collapsing


    An American Airlines life-vest found in NY

    Some items recovered from the towers after collapse were in almost pristine condition


    Papers and perishable items on the ground after the first tower was struck and before it collapsed

    People stopping to look at a seat cushion


    Someone walking through this saw a passport, picked it up and handed it in.

    Your argument: "I can't believe it so it didn't happen", with no explanation or evidence to the contrary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    It's not just that he's not giving an explanation.

    The fact he and other conspiracy theories bring it up carries implications. If they're claiming it's impossible for the passport to survive and be handed in, it implies that they are implying the real explanation is that the passport was fake and planted, or the story is fabricated entirely.

    Alan and other conspiracy theorists believe this is the true explanation and that it makes it clear there's a conspiracy here.

    If there's another explanation, no conspiracy theorist has provided one. Nor would any alternative explanation make sense, else why bring it up as an issue?

    (Ie. it being a case of mistaken identity and it's just some random passport from a different guy who looks like and has the same name as the hijacker is not concidered as it doesn't imply a conspiracy.

    There are no other viable or rational explanations besides the official one.


    The issue here is that Alan and other conspiracy theorists don't want to admit that this is what they are arguing and believe. They don't want to discuss the conspiracy theory explanation.

    Alan knows that the argument is debunked. He's been shown the explanation many many times and that's why he ignores it. He knows that the conspiracy theory explanation is idiotic, which is why he ignores all the questions about it.

    It's pure dishonesty.

    And all to cling onto a silly conspiracy theory that he knows is false and stupid.

    The question is why. Does he really think that clinging onto obvious silly nonsense makes him look like an informed rebel thinker?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,705 ✭✭✭✭Hello 2D Person Below


    Good post.

    Not all conspiracy theories are created equal.

    Once upon a time the Yanks using Shannon Airport to funnel weapons was a conspiracy theory.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Again, the conspiracies being discussed here include:

    Alan's which is that the people behind faking 9/11 took the time to fake a passport (and possibly many other items) for reasons unknown and all while knowing that such a thing is impossible and would be a dead give away.

    And Marky's which is that all space travel is faked.


    Do you believe these are reasonable conspiracy theories?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,421 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Your error is comparing this scenario to a magic children's tale and a religious tale, yet immediately put your own evidence in place that items such as passports can survive plane crashes. So you're using 2 impossible scenarios as evidence that a third possible scenario can't have happened and then refuting your own evidence.

    The actual scenario is the chances of such evidence being planted by someone with an agenda (and ability to cover up that agenda) vs. someone finding the passport and handing it over (which is what most people do when they find a passport). Both are now possible scenarios to compare and a probability of either can be given, with the former requiring evidence of the agenda (which is why it's easy to blame magic).



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Santa leaving a bike at Christmas is not an equivalent of some conspiracy to destroy the WTC.


    In one you have a naïve individual who will believe what the person in authority tells them about a fictional character, and because they don't yet fully understand how money, shops and reindeer work they go along with it. Then one day they realise that reindeer don't fly and understand that it was just a story to keep kids entertained.

    In the other you have a series of events all perfectly explainable by video evidence and science, and the alternative mystical theory that nobody can explain why it would happen or any motivation for why a government would want to kill thousands of their own citizens in a fake terrorist attack.


    If you are believing the conspiracy theories, then you are the 5 year old who thinks that Santa left you the bike at Christmas. Why does Santa want to deliver bikes to children at Christmas? How do the reindeer manage to fly? Who funds Santa purchasing all the toys? How does he deliver stuff to houses without chimneys?



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,701 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    It's been explained to that poster so many times I suspect they don't understand any of this. They keep confusing incredulity with belief in fantasies and fairies and Santa.

    Using the word rationalise instead of the word belief might be better (although I doubt it). They can't rationalise something to themselves, therefore it can't be true, e.g. "I can't rationalise that we are on a spinning globe traveling at 1000 mph through a void, therefore we aren't", "I can't rationalise that a passport survived an aircraft impact, so, it didn't"

    It's on the same level as "I can't understand it, so it didn't happen" which is a staple on this forum



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    And again, if the child started to plug his ears and cry about how mean we are rather than address those questions, he would also be acting exactly like conspiracy theorists.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Yet another post buried by the drivel of conspiracy haters. The problem is that they believe that anything coming from an "official governmental source" could not possibly be deceptive or a lie. They think it would require a massive collective effort to suppress a big magical secret. This is not only desperately naive but is also absolutely not true as my OP explains.

    The bizarre thing I've noticed from them too is how some governments (US, EU, Australia, Israel governments etc.) they believe to be virtuous heroes who always have everyone's best interests at heart. But then if you mention Russia, China, middle eastern governments it's all LIES, PROPAGANDA, CONSPIRACIES. The simplistic view of the world is pathetic really.

    I guarantee you they all believe the 2016 US election was won as a result of "Russian Interference". 😄



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Strawman to deflect from the points being made. No one subscribes to the positions you are describing. You are simply being dishonest again.


    And again your point is completely undercut by the ridiculous conspiracy you believe.

    You claimed that all space flights are fake.

    This is a ridiculous conspiracy. it would be literally impossible to suppress and would require millions of people involved and all for no reason.


    Even the other conspiracy theorists in this thread agree, hence why non of them address it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Where on earth do you get the idea that people think the governments of US, UK etc are always in the right. That is absolutely not the case in any way and the government account of things is often questioned. We also know that they do things in secret without telling us and things that they would rather we didn't know the finer details of. Those things are all entirely explainable and the reasons for them happening can be understood, if not always morally right.

    That is not the same as conspiracy theorists who have decided that something odd happened, can't get their head around it, so then the only explanation they can then come up with is that a big baddy who lives in a volcanoes must be behind what is happening but they fail to explain why and none of it stands up to any scrutiny or scientific explanation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    I suspect he knows he's plucking that idea out of his arse. He know that isn't a position any of us hold.

    But because he isn't able to address any of the points made to him, and he doesn't want people to hear about his very silly beliefs, he's trying to made a strawman to deflect.

    He's shown that he's a very dishonest debater, so I don't at all believe that this claim is made out of innocent ignorance and misunderstanding.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    You claimed that all space flights are fake.

    A friend of mine recently took a nice photo of the ISS flying infront of the moon from New Zealand, but then I guess he's in on the conspiracy as well.

    Either that or the US government knew that he was about to take the photo and sent someone along to his back yard with a tiny model of the ISS on a fishing line and hung it infront of his camera setup at the exact right moment. Yep, that's clearly the far more likely explanation that a team of people with fishing rods is monitoring amateur astronomical photography forums and getting ready to pounce at a moments notice with their ISS models and dangle them infront of cameras.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    You completely missed the point! It's people like you who think there needs to be a big baddy in a volcano in order for a conspiracy to exist. I and many others believe that conspiracies can exist without the need for huge cooperative efforts from thousands of sinister people. Only very few conspiracies get exposed (just look at the watergate scandal - only for they found links to funds in Nixon's campaign this would have remained a conspiracy theory in which people like you would persist in denying the plausibility) The vast majority of them will remain safely behind closed doors - not only closed doors, but doors that are now reinforced by conspiracy haters like the ones in this forum who don't believe conspiracies can exist.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    So the Watergate conspiracy with a few people breaking in to steal some documents and then the president claiming to not know anything about it is the equivalent of two massive buildings being deliberately destroyed, a global conspiracy to fake a pandemic and a vaccine to track people by 5G, and the faking of all space programs from all nations along with somehow still having GPS technology and satellite TV?


    Nobody is saying that conspiracies don't happen. We're just saying that the ones you are following are utter nonsense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Again, you show yourself up.

    You claimed that all space flight is faked.

    How is this possible with only a few people?


    And I love how you guys keep bringing up Watergate.

    A conspiracy of less than a hundred people. That was exposed by the mainstream media. That was exposed by the mainstream media BECAUSE ONE OF THE PEOPLE INVOLVED TOLD THE MEDIA!


    You are arguing that this somehow proves that a conspiracy of millions is somehow possible?

    Hilarious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    That must be the explanation cause it's simply not possible that Marky here is just wrong and doesn't know about science.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,701 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    You believe that the space program is fake.

    So it follows you have to create a fantasy reality where millions of people are capable of keeping it all under wraps, the media is one giant conspiracy, all the governments of the world are working together to keep it all a secret for some unknown reason, that anyone who disagrees with you is some sort of "sheeple" who are "brainwashed" by the "evil governments", that all scientists and experts and astro-physicists and rocket scientists are all in on it.

    On top of all that, it's obvious you know it's all a lie also because you keep dodging questions and avoiding addressing it.

    So of course you'll try and side with a conspiracy theorist, any conspiracy theorist because you know they will be the only ones who will validate that crapola. There are conspiracy theory forum safe spaces which filter out facts/reason/questions, where you can spout this shite and be surrounded by like-minded gullible uninformed people who will agree with you and you'll agree with their contradictory theories, so I have no idea why you bring this here or what you thought would happen.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Gets to play the victim.

    Too many people asking too many questions and being mean.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    100x more people died in the Iraq war than in the world trade centers all based around the belief that they had weapons of mass destruction. Do you believe the Iraqies have weapons of mass destruction?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    And when backed into a corner, a new tangent gets throw out.

    Answers to questions are demanded after pages of ignoring questions put to him.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Do you believe that the US government actively set out to kill their own military personnel?


    US Military deaths in Iraq is probably about the same as civilian in the WTC. The US did not kill 3,000,000 of their own military in Iraq.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,705 ✭✭✭✭Hello 2D Person Below


    No, I don't believe in either of these particular theories.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,705 ✭✭✭✭Hello 2D Person Below


    "Why would a government intentionally harm its citizens?" is quite a porous argument considering the US government has done exactly that numerous times.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    Ok. Do you believe they are reasonable things to believe? Do you think they are conspiracy theories worth considering seriously?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,043 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Yep, we know that.


    And those other instances when it happens have explanations. What is the purpose of the WTC attack being faked, or faking a global pandemic?



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,223 ✭✭✭✭King Mob


    No, the questions we are asking are more like: "why would a government go to the bother of faking a passport for literally no reason when doing so would be a dead give away." or "Why would there be a vast global conspiracy to fake space flights."


    No one here has argued that conspiracy theories aren't true because of a disbelief that a government would do something harmful.

    It's a dishonest strawman to suggest otherwise.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭Markus Antonius


    Do you believe the 2016 election was won as a result of Russian interference?



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