Multi species swards

Pinsnbushings · 20-06-2021 4:17pm #1

I thought I might start a thread on multi species as interest seems to be growing in them another article in the journal this week. Maybe lads who have some on there farms or are thinking of experimenting could post how they are getting on.
I've attached pictures of my own attempt below. The cows grazed this yesterday. It was sown last august, sprayed off with roundup and mcpa.power harrowed and sown with 1 pass.. Got 2.5 bags 10/10/20 and 2t lime at sowing.
Grazed with the calves once and 1 grazing with the cows last year.
This is it's 4th grazing this year. Got 3/4 bag urea after first round and a bag of pasture sward after 2nd round.notging since.
The plantain and clover are dominating the sward this round with some chicory the grass looks hungry.woild like to be getting slurry out now. I'm thinking of putting a bag of 0/7/30 on it aswell.
Jury still out but thought I'd open the discussion on it

funkey_monkey · 21-06-2021 10:01am

Really interested in this thread. Funnily enough I had started something similar yesterday in relation to grass management. What seed mix did you use on this?

jimmy G M · 21-06-2021 11:38am

Yeah, i'd be interested in this thread also. Trying to get some clover into the ground here on the cheap so mixed 10kg of clover seed into a slatted tank of slurry and spread onto 10 acres a few days after silage taken off almost 3 weeks ago. Be interesting to see the result, ideal conditions at the time and afterwards, moisture and warmth, but dare I say it, ground is gone very dry here now.....

Pinsnbushings · 21-06-2021 11:41am

I just saw your other thread there now dunno maybe they should be merged or keep this 1 for multi species and the other for alternative grazing management etc.. There definitely seems to be a willingness out there to look at alternatives to the 250kg/ha nitrogen, ryegrass golf ball grazing route
I'm attaching a picture of the mixture I used, it was the only one I could get quickly at the time. I don't think the sainfoin established or at least I can't make it out in the sward.

funkey_monkey · 21-06-2021 12:05pm

I presume that is a grazing mix - can you take a cut from it?
Also a question - when the seed mix states it is a grazing mix or silage mix - just how definitive are these designations?

Pinsnbushings · 21-06-2021 1:36pm

funkey_monkey wrote: »

I presume that is a grazing mix - can you take a cut from it?
Also a question - when the seed mix states it is a grazing mix or silage mix - just how definitive are these designations?

Where I showed it won't be suitable for cutting so will be purely grazing. I'd say you could cut it but from what I hear it's very important to get it wilted because it is a higher moisture content. Also maybe cut a little higher to protect some of the different plants.
Some good info on DLF and germinal seeds websites and also the asa had a webinar recently.
I wouldn't get too hung up on grazing or silage mixtures particularly of it's all ryegrass being sown. But dunno what others think on that.

Pinsnbushings · 21-06-2021 1:37pm

jimmy G M wrote: »

Yeah, i'd be interested in this thread also. Trying to get some clover into the ground here on the cheap so mixed 10kg of clover seed into a slatted tank of slurry and spread onto 10 acres a few days after silage taken off almost 3 weeks ago. Be interesting to see the result, ideal conditions at the time and afterwards, moisture and warmth, but dare I say it, ground is gone very dry here now.....

Sounds like a good plan,and won't cost the earth if it goes wrong.

Anto_Meath · 21-06-2021 2:23pm

For the last 3 years if I am spreading fertilizer on bare ground I sometimes put in a bag of hayseed into the spreader with a tonne of fertilizer. You can defiantly see an improvement in the clover coverage on the fields that have been done. Really impressed with a silage field I done in 2019, there is a very heavy swart on it this year for cutting and it is full of clover.

funkey_monkey · 21-06-2021 2:32pm

Would the seed to be lying in the slurry above the soil surface with that method? I'd be concerned about the seed lying in dried out slurry and not germinating.
Fingers crossed it works out for you.

blue5000 · 21-06-2021 2:44pm

Pinsnbushings wrote: »

I just saw your other thread there now dunno maybe they should be merged or keep this 1 for multi species and the other for alternative grazing management etc.. There definitely seems to be a willingness out there to look at alternatives to the 250kg/ha nitrogen, ryegrass golf ball grazing route
I'm attaching a picture of the mixture I used, it was the only one I could get quickly at the time. I don't think the sainfoin established or at least I can't make it out in the sward.

Mod note; I had a quick look at the other thread, I think we'll keep this one for multi-species swards for now, as it might interest some of the more intensive dairy lads too.

TBH I can't see what plantain has to offer.

endainoz · 21-06-2021 3:00pm

blue5000 wrote: »

Mod note; I had a quick look at the other thread, I think we'll keep this one for multi-species swards for now, as it might interest some of the more intensive dairy lads too.

TBH I can't see what plantain has to offer.

I believe plantain has deeper roots to bring up nutrients to feed the other plants. I think it's also good for compaction.

funkey_monkey · 21-06-2021 3:03pm

endainoz wrote: »

I believe plantain has deeper roots to bring up nutrients to feed the other plants. I think it's also good for compaction.

Also 20% protein.

funkey_monkey · 31-08-2021 2:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117473299#Comment_117473299

@jimmy G M - any sign of the seeds striking yet?

funkey_monkey · 31-08-2021 2:56pm

@Pinsnbushings - Any conclusions yet on MSS? We might be getting some done next year and I'd like to a MSS mixture. Do you know what their persistence is like compared to a std ryegrass mix?

31-08-2021 6:35pm

@blue5000

https://www.agricology.co.uk/resources/using-chicory-and-plantain-beef-and-sheep-systems

List of benefits here

Pinsnbushings · 31-08-2021 6:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117828351#Comment_117828351

I think it's still too early to say, but I think I'd have to be positive enough about it after the first year. It has kept in the rotation with the ryegrass with a lot less nitrogen, it has a high clover content there now, hope that will persist.

Don't know about the chicory and the plantain, not as prominent as when first sown but the composition of the sward seems to change throughout the year anyway. It's more interesting to look at than ryegrass for sure and cows seem to like it. The way I look at it now is I've saved the difference in the cost of the seeds on fert in the first year, and if they persist well and good,if not I'll still have a decent field of grass and clover.

I think I will try one of my better fields next year and see how it goes there.

Jimbo789 · 31-08-2021 8:29pm

What post emergence spray could you use that would be safe on the clover, chicory and plantain?

Pinsnbushings · 31-08-2021 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117830081#Comment_117830081

Im Not sure, I didn't spray mine and thankfully not much weeds in it..I think it's advised to sort any weed issues before sowing..i heard somewhere that some of the clover safe sprays are going to be hard to get going forward.

davidk1394 · 01-09-2021 7:31pm

Growing MSS here since the summer of 2017. The mixture in the photos was sown in April 2020. I bought a grazing mixture off DLF and I mixed chicory and plantain through it before it went into the one pass. I didn't spread fert on this since May, it will get 3 bags to the ac of 0 10 20 next week. Earlier in the year I noticed cows went back on protein but up on litres.

This photo was a paddock that was sown with MSS in June 2017. The plantain is is gone but the chicory is still going. There is more management in these swards but if managed correctly they could work in with intensive dairy.

funkey_monkey · 01-09-2021 10:01pm

So no benefit to those running sucklers?

davidk1394 · 01-09-2021 10:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117835568#Comment_117835568

I presume it would be very beneficial. I had it here when we had sheep and found it great.

funkey_monkey · 01-09-2021 10:35pm

What additional management do they need? The plantain doesn't seem to have much longevity. Do they suit tight grazing or do you need to move stock on earlier?

Markcheese · 01-09-2021 10:55pm

Would it work to stitch in a small amount of seed mix every year or 2 - to keep the amount of less persistent plants up - ?

Pinsnbushings · 01-09-2021 11:45pm

Looks great David. How much fert did you apply in the spring? Did you spread any slurry on it over the summer? I found that protein dropped when cows grazed mine aswell.

Great clover in the older sown sward. Would you look to add back the plantain or are you happy enough with how that sward is performing now?

davidk1394 · 02-09-2021 8:37am

I'm still learning by trial and error. Teagasc had very little advice for me. When it was set it got 3 bags to the ac of 10 10 20. This year I spread 3 bags of CAN on it up until May. It will get 3 bags of 0 10 20 in a few days. It got no slurry only parlor washings.

I found during the summer it would have to be grazed every 16 days so the chicory won't go stemmy. I will sow more next year but I will reduce the amount of chicory and plantain in the mix. When it was growing I was worried the chicory and plantain would smother the grass. I found it has to grazed tight

I was considering over sowing the chicory or plantain into existing swards but I don't think it would be beneficial. I will have to do a cost analysis next year when I am better set up. The cost of spreading fert on normal grass and the tonnes of DM/Ha vs the MSS where you save the fert but do you loose output.

funkey_monkey · 02-09-2021 1:22pm

Would you be able to get the bulk in it for silage?

We are looking to do some reseeding but at the minute it is looking like a ryegrass mix with some clover mixed in.

davidk1394 · 02-09-2021 2:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117837720#Comment_117837720

It's not supposed to be grown for silage just for grazing.

Reggie. · 03-09-2021 10:20am

Sowing some mixed species myself in a 1 acre calf paddock here in a week or two. Paddock was reseeded twice and gras never did well so chancing the mixed species on it

jimmy G M · 03-09-2021 9:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117473299#Comment_117473299

Sorry lads only seeing this now.....

Anyway my "method" was a complete waste of time and money.... I cannot honestly say that I saw any clover at all as a result if the way I did it and I checked carefully from aprox 10 days after spreading and for a few weeks more after that.

It may have been the dry weather but most likely the seed not making contact with the soil as someone said.

Next year after silage I am going to get someone in to stitch in the clover with a guttler machine or similar...

Anyway Ill chalk it down to as a learning experience...

Water John · 03-09-2021 9:58pm

The slurry acid might have botched germination? Another possibility is that the clover might turn up next year.

If ground was bare next year. I would think simply broadcasting the clover and rolling it in may work. Also go with a selection of clovers with different leaf sizes and root depth.

I think farmers will have together develop the knowledge base on the growth and management of these swards. UCD is a trial resource.

Reggie. · 03-09-2021 10:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844205#Comment_117844205

Could be just better to get it stitched in and use a proven method

jimmy G M · 04-09-2021 10:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844546#Comment_117844546

Good man Reggie. Anyone would think I was trying to drum up business for you😉

Bass Reeves · 04-09-2021 11:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117844028#Comment_117844028

Did you keep the area grazed bare after spreading the over seed. Clover can take a while to strike. As well if it was coated in slurry it might not have germinated. 8-10 years ago there was a REPS program that encouraged trying to get clover over seeded into swards. It was not a great success. For these systems to have a chance you need to keep the field grazed bare until the seed strikes and us growing strongly.

jimmy G M · 06-09-2021 9:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117845719#Comment_117845719

Yeah, I know that clover ground would need to be grazed tight. When I saw nothing coming I left 1 field grow for 2nd cut. The other field was grazed.... no clover in either... maybe it will strike later in the year or next year... how long would clover seed hold ungerminated in the ground?

endainoz · 07-09-2021 4:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117855789#Comment_117855789

I've had a bit of success with the clover broadcasting, but still I'd be sceptical how efficient it is to do it that way. The run of the chain harrow before spreading definitely helps I think to give more of a chance of seed contacting soil. I'm not sure how long the seed would stay in the ground ungerminated though. Could it have been a PH issue that it didn't grow for you?

blue5000 · 15-09-2021 4:23pm

https://www.teagasc.ie/news--events/national-events/events/teagascorganicwebinar1.php

Teagasc webinar on organic MSS

Pinsnbushings · 17-09-2021 7:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895521#Comment_117895521

I'll tune into that, very good speakers.

Pinsnbushings · 17-09-2021 7:28am

20210916_173223.jpg

20210916_173230.jpg

Just throwing up a couple of pictures of my field from yesterday. It's a little over a year sown now so coming to the end of the first grazing season. It's about 20 days since last grazed, no fert applied after that grazing.

Clover is flying it, I think it's been a good year for Clover in general. The plantain seems to be getting scarcer,plenty of chicory still there. All in all happy enough with how it's going.

Hard Knocks · 17-09-2021 9:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902292#Comment_117902292

Looks good

would you have any bloat problems with so much clover on that parcel and not as much on others?

Pinsnbushings · 17-09-2021 10:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902476#Comment_117902476

Haven't had any issues so far, but am wondering should I be using some oil as the clover is becoming very dominant in it now. We would generally be strip grazing, getting 24 hour allocation all year round. Maybe that helps I don't know.

endainoz · 17-09-2021 1:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117902832#Comment_117902832

I wouldn't be too worried about it dominating too much. Some have fear of bloat in animals from it but I think that can be pretty rare. I remember we were told by an organic guy from teagasc that if the cattles mineral levels are ok then bloat shouldn't be an issue. You have a lovely sward there fair play. My own clover broadcasting went well enough in the meadows but certainly not as strong as yours!

funkey_monkey · 17-09-2021 1:05pm

That field looks great - coming on well with a good cover. Do you think the plantain will recover next year or has it gone completely?

Does the MMS not contain a species to counteract bloat?

funkey_monkey · 17-09-2021 1:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117895521#Comment_117895521

Can anyone log into these - i.e. up in NI or do you need an ID number to get registered?

endainoz · 17-09-2021 2:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903617#Comment_117903617

I was able register fine for it, they don't look for any specific number, you just get an email with the zoom link for Wednesday

Pinsnbushings · 17-09-2021 6:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903583#Comment_117903583

Don't think I did anything special to end up with so much clover, it's a field that wouldn't have got much bagged manure over the years, whether that has any influence.

I will be trying to broadcast or stitch some clover next spring as well. I think if you get the clover in at all it will develop over time, if you manage the sward to suit the clover more than the grass.

A full reseed probably makes it easier to establish it, but sure who can go in and reseed there whole farm.

Pinsnbushings · 17-09-2021 6:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903609#Comment_117903609

I don't know to be honest, it was plentiful at the start, a guy from 1 of the seed companies told me that in there experience you need to sow 1kg per acre for it to last. That mix only had .5kg so maybe he is right.

Maybe it will come on in the spring again when the clover won't be as strong.

Not sure if there is something specific, but the chicory have deeper roots so may bring up more minerals, which might tie in with what endainoz was saying.

endainoz · 18-09-2021 10:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117905314#Comment_117905314

Yeah I think your correct in that both plantain and chicory bring up nutrients with deeper roots. Docks are supposed to be great for it aswell as are nettles. It's strange having to change opinion on something people see as a pest because animals don't eat it.

blue5000 · 18-09-2021 11:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117903617#Comment_117903617

Did you get registered yet? Might be just your ip address stopping you.

Water John · 18-09-2021 6:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117907190#Comment_117907190

Cattle will eat the tips of growing nettles. Saw on Gardeners World a woman making a nitrogen feed with nettles and brown sugar. The resulting potion was so strong it was diluted 500:1 for feeding plants.

Pin, that's a lovely sward.

Say my name · 18-09-2021 9:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117908907#Comment_117908907

She was some woman. Putting lots of people to shame.

Was looking at the ms sward in johnstown castle this week. Seen another one previous being run organically receiving dairy washings. The organic one was like walking in a pair of Nike runners on the soil. Felt very spongy like compost and spade just went in like butter. The johnstown castle one felt exact same as the ryegrass sward. Hard ground. The jc one is topped up with P fertiliser and a little N in spring. Organic one obviously not. Johnstown castle one sprayed off and disced and sowed. Organic one ploughed and sown. Not sure if sprayed off before conversion. Jc one the plantain and chicory and red Clover were getting thin and it's looking like it'll be grass and Clover next year. The Organic one looked stronger with these plants still there. I think both were sown autumn 2019. Whether management of grazing?

Silage might have been taken off jc one. 5/6 bales of wet mush were mentioned. Mss looks to only suit grazing only and paddock or "mob grazing" only. Mentioned at jc how docks were crowded out in the two years after mss was sown. Didn't need to spray. Worst case scenario was mentioned you'd be left with a field of grass and clover in year 3.

Bass Reeves · 18-09-2021 10:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117909443#Comment_117909443

It would probably suit a drystock system better. Less pressure to achieve ideal grazing heights, so less likely to be cutting it as an excess paddock. If when it was cut it was wet mush, it needed a longer wilt and to avoid cutting in broken weather. It much the same with arable silage( grass/ pea's/ barley) it needs a right wilt.

In a drystock system you would probably get away with 50-60% of the N required for a dairy system. If a paddock gets too strong graze and then top it with a disc mower 24-48 hours before moving

Multi species swards

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