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Landlords selling up - Rents rising

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    What has that got to do what I said?

    Are you claiming that anyone can plonk a garden room into their back garden and rent it out legally to a student? If not, then your anecdote is irrelevant.


    Your second part does not change the fact that delays/blocking of housing helps current landlords. Reasoning who does it, or why they do it, not change the fact that they do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,993 ✭✭✭FileNotFound




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    So if you do the DIY, bill yourself 200 quid, deduct that as an expense from the rental income, do you then submit a tax return for the extra 200 you earned from your DIY nixer and pay tax on it there instead?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,360 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Revenue will do nothing about certain practices for year. And then at some point they will go hell for leather and have a blitz on it.

    Its coming at some point for landlords who havent been paying tax.

    I know a few poeple who got caught big time when they went for the offshore accounts a few years ago.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    That is not what you said and very different to what you said. They don't knowingly let an individual/company rack up tax debt. What you described there is investigation in a targeted way to find if there is avoidance by a particular sector or business practice. They also release information to say they are doing it. They have to legally.


    The idea that another person would willingly not let another person know about a debt and wait to file a complaint is the act of vengeance and hate. Can you explain it another way?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,360 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    As far as I can see all a landlord needs to do is not give a reason to a tenant for rejecting them.

    Say to any viewers that the landlord in interviewing for the next couple of weeks and will ring you if you get it.

    If you dont like them for whatever reason, dont ring them back.

    If they ring you back just say "the property was rented to someone else". And leave it at that.



  • Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Just on this point, the government gets half of all income, not profit, made on a rental property. That is a huge distinction and completely changes the tone of the first half of your post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,360 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    Does a small business owner not pay themselves a salary for their work?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,360 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    You would argue with a barn door for the sake of an argument.

    What I said was revenue will let these things build up until they feel the gain is there to be made by going after at that point.

    I worked in revenue. they know all of the people who are avoiding tax. They are flagged for future collection.

    They will very rarely audit individuals if they can go after them all in one go for the same reason at a later stage.

    For example - If I were a landlord who hadnt paid tax on their rental income, I would be very worried at this point, simply because ive seen these reports and queries.

    If I was a landlord who had paid my taxes over the years I would have nothing to worry about.

    They have what they need to go after individuals, but they dont. They wait and group them up. Unless a person is selected for a random or targeted audit. Which is rare.

    So yes, they do let it build up.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    You are taxed after expenses, so whatever is left after that you are taxed on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    On about planning again.

    There is no problem with planning permission outside the major citys for a start so how do you explain rents rising quicker around the country and the rents levelling off in Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,219 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    weird I designed your systems and that is not what the system was designed for. Find it hard to believe you given the laws too



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,896 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Could you explain how they're getting half of income, when they tax you on income less expenses (which is profit)?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,896 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay




  • Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]



    While that's correct, it is a complete non-sequitur to the disscussion.

    You said "the government gets half of any profit made after tax". This is untrue. They get half of ANY INCOME received, minus any deductible expenses. You do not have to be making a profit to pay tax on income received as rent. If your rental income is €1k and your mortgage is €2k, you still pay tax on the full €1k (less expenses, before this is jumped on).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    Yes, you are correct, I had it worded incorrectly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,883 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    I would have thought that was pretty obvious!

    If you apply for a job they don't tell you the real reason if your not successful, and typically dont give you any reason. especially if Catherine Zappone is also going for the role.


    anyway, a lot of this talk started about landlords having no power or rights, when they have the right to choose who to rent to, and making a mistake on their selection of tenants can be a very costly one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    1) You appear to acknowledge the State's policies, failures and mistakes which have caused a shortage in the housing market. This disfunction in turn has greatly benefited landlords who can command higher rent for their properties. Lets assume that you are aware - as per the thread title - that rents are rising and that they are higher now than they were, say, 5 years ago.

    2) State policies have led to a situation where private individuals are competing against the State - with it's relatively unlimited resources - for that scare private accommodation. Rent supplement and similar payments place a floor under which landlords will not rent to a private individuals. These payments are benchmarked against the "market rates" which they help to inflate, causing a vicious cycle for those without unlimited pockets trying to compete with the State. Result is higher rent and more money for landlords.

    3) Then you moan about the State making interventions in that market to limit the upwards movement of prices.

    Then when it is pointed out to you that you can't reasonably complain about the principle of State intervention without conceding that landlords have greatly benefited from State actions, you don't seem to have the ability to join the dots. It appears that you can understand each point in isolation, but don't have the ability to understand them together at the same time.



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  • Posts: 6,045 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Because it's not treated the same as any normal business.

    Let's say your income (rent) is €1,500 pm for your property.

    If your outgoings (mortgage) are €1,000 per month, that would be €500 profit in any normal business. Being taxed on the €500 is what the previous poster was talking about, which doesn't happen. You get taxed on the €1,500, which is considerably different. And that doesn't really change, no matter what your income is. If you're getting €500 per month, you still pay tax on the €1,500.

    People will argue about the capital appreciation and how your asset is being paid off and blah blah blah. Simple fact of the matter is, you can be making a loss every month and still have to pay tax, because you are taxed on the income, not the profit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    I haven't put a phone number on an advertisement in years, e-mail only, it's very easy to weed out a lot of the wasters that way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    Okay, let's see where we are now.

    1) Agree on the housing shortage and the knock-on effect causing price increases for tenants.

    2) Don't agree on that one, HAP limits for a 3 bed house around my neck of the woods is €500pm, so a private renter has the upper hand there.

    3) Don't agree there either, never moned about rent only landlord rights.

    4) I'm too thick to answer this one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,007 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    It could be treated as a normal business though, they could create a business and incorporate the assets. The issue is that the majority of owners don't want to treat it as a business or that it wouldn't be a viable business.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,224 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    I could be wrong but when a company or individual borrows from a bank to start up or fund a business, its only the interest on the loan that can be expensed. Tax is due on income from sales less expenses & loan repayments are not included in the calculation. Renting is the same, except 100% of the interest part of the mortgage loan is only allowed in some cases.

    Edit: https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/rental-income/irish-rental-income/what-expenses-are-allowed.aspx

    Post edited by mrslancaster on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,337 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Regarding your concept of a "loss", it's the same broad principal as putting 500 a month into a regular savings account that matures in 10 years. You aren't allowed to claim income tax back on that either. Like your house, it's a monthly negative cashflow with a balloon payment at the end.

    For your example to be consistent, hypothetically allowing capital cost to be written off like that would reduce your cost base of the asset to zero. In other words, buy your house for 500k today, pay it off and write off the interest and principal repayments over the next 20 years, then whatever you sell it for at the end, you pay tax on the entire amount. Not the difference over 500k. If you sell it for 1m then you pay tax on that 1m. If house prices crash and you sell it for 250k, you'd still have to pay tax on that 250k even though it would be, in your own mind, a loss.

    This is the way it works in regular business. If I buy a capital asset such as a new piece of machinery for e.g 200k I can depreciate it over around 7 years. Roughly speaking, I write off 30k a year from my othewise "profit" during that time. At the end of the 7 years it's book value is now zero. If I later dispose of that asset for say 100k, then that 100k is now profit/income. If I dispose of it for 300k then that 300k is now profit. Either way I will pay the applicable tax at that point in time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,447 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    You seem to imply that a business can deduct loan capital repayments from their turnover, to arrive at net profit.

    This is false.

    Businesses do not get tax relief on loan capital repayments.

    Just like landlords, they get tax relief on loan interest payments.



    Yes, landlords are taxed on their net rental profits, which are positive, while their cashflows are negative, as they are using their cash to build up an asset.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,447 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Self-employed workers earn profits, not wages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    Any self-employed people I know including myself take a wage/salary.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,447 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    If they take a wage/salary, then they are a PAYE employee of their own Limited company.

    Otherwise, they are taking drawings.



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