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General British politics discussion thread

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It is a democracy but one that was fashioned grudgingly and incrementally over centuries for a much similar age and never has been properly updated for the twenty-first century. It is also teeming with undemocratic constructs such as the unelected head of state, the unelected upper house of Parliament, the peerage system, titles & honors, etc...

    We now live in age when party affiliation has dropped through the floor, large voting demographics have collapsed like the trade unionists and more and more people are either self-employed or are in precarious "gig economy" jobs. The FPTP system of picking one out of two parties just doesn't really work with the UK being the most diverse it's ever been.

    If the young had ever bothered to vote, we wouldn't be in this mess. They didn't vote in 2016, 2017 and 2019 and this is the result. The system would still yield warped results but we'd at least be in the EU.

    It's facile to say the UK isn't a democracy as this invites comparisons with various undemocratic nations but it's perfectly reasonable to point out how unfit-for-purpose most of it is.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Democracy is implemented differently in every country. Even undemocratic states try to make themselves democratic by having fake or highly manipulated votes where the existing despot gets approval by 98% of the vote.

    As Oscar Wilde said - “hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue”. Well, one could hold that rigged elections is a tilt that despots pay to democracy.  Currently, gerrymandering and voter suppression is also rigging elections and is rampant in the USA, and to a lesser extent in the UK.

    FPTP only enables it - if your vote matters not a jot, why bother marking the paper. I would count that as voter suppression.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    The fall will come. Slowly, and then all at once. We just can't see it yet.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    I'm not sure that any fall would come that soon; the UK's political structures are wrapped in a cloak of self-mythologising "tradition"; that, IMO, makes it very hard for sensible reform or self-analysis, when so much of UK democracy is actual pomp and ceremony. I'm often (too) quick to cheer our own structures, but things like the Citizens Assembly, and our own codified referendum give me confidence we have the capacity to avoid any hard ideological lurches. No such safety nets exist in the UK beyond wishy-washy Gentleman's Agreements prone to manipulation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    The fall I allude to is that of this Tory government.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Apologies; fair enough. I don't agree with that either, mind you. And certainly those that might take the reigns don't appear an improvement.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    The thing with the sort of inter-generational disparity that exists here is that support for things like the monarchy tends to be concentrated amongst older voters. I think the same will hold true for Brexit but unlike the monarchy, the turnaround will be much slower. I think as the chanting about things like Scottish Independence, the House of Lords, peerages and the like increases over time, something will change.

    Johnson, as he stands now is all but indestructible. He has an array of human shields in place should the worst happen. Of course, we don't know what tomorrow will bring. No strategy will work forever. At some point, deriding Labour because they allegedly want to undo Brexit will stop working. Reminds me of George Osborne warning that voting for Brexit would lower house prices in a tone deaf way that only an Oxbridge-educated old Etonian could muster without a shred of self-awareness.

    When I look at some of the leaders of the past, men much more hard working and intelligent than Johnson, it shows clearly that what he's doing will work only until he overreaches like Cameron and Thatcher and then it'll spur some change, probably minor enough but change nonetheless.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What should he have done, jumped on a plane and flew there maybe?

    maybe picked up a gun a single handedly defeated the taliban ?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,500 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Not gone off to sun himself while a humanitarian catastrophe unfolds? I find it highly unlikely that the foreign secretary of this country had no idea this was going to happen.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Are you seriously comparing the UK to Afghanistan?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 24,629 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    A bit over the top in fairness.

    The Taliban would never put a crook like Johnson in charge 🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Jeez, i dunno...maybe apologise for being caught asleep at the wheel again, for imperilling the lives not just of British subjects in Afghanistan but of those Afghanis who had been helping them and have no quick easy route to escape. For abjectly misreading the situation a mere month ago and the myopic decision to cut aid.

    Or if that's asking too much, just a small dash of humility maybe, not sit there all smug as ever, heckling and "chuntering", as Ian Blackford out it, while opposition mps made their point.

    Lying on a sunbed in Crete all day as the Taliban moved into Kabul. The Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Early 2020 - Boris Johnson on week long holiday in Kent as floods devastate much of Yorkshire and other areas.

    February-March 2020 - PM misses several cobra meetings as covid crisis deepens, spends much of the parliamentary recess on break at Chequers.

    August 2021- Johnson heads off for holiday in Somerset as Afghanistan just about to fall to Taliban.

    Makes a bit of a habit of it, this chap. Bit of a reverse Zeilig about him, almost.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    asleep at the wheel of what?

    what is it he was supposed to do, send a strongly worded tweet?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,418 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Not at all.

    Afghanistan has never pretended to be democratic. It is a tribal system of war lords with weak central government. It has a very young population so the new order might or might not be better than the regime overseen by the USA military. We will see, but sanctions against the new order will not help Afghanis.

    The British tried to invade it between 1839 and 1842, leaving in defeat. The Russian spent 20 years trying to pacify Afghanistan, leaving in defeat. The USA with allies (including he British) spent 20 years trying to pacify Afghanistan, leaving in defeat.

    I see a trend here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Look, maybe it's just me, but I'd like to think that if my country's consular and other staff and allies were about to be plunged into an emergency situation, there'd be a pm and leader of the foreign office back at home entirely on top of their brief. A lot to ask for though, I know. Actually, on second thoughts, given the calibre of people we're talking about here, maybe not of all that much consequence if they'd simply continued on their holidays and left the truly clued in people at it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    personally I'd say sending troops and transport planes to rescue its citizens and others that are in danger is the best place to start, rather than just sending tweets telling them to phone Dubai, but that seems to be an acceptable response in some countries.

    other than poor optics, what should Dominic Raab have done differently? what actions should he have taken but didn't because he was in Cyprus?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You mean he should have known how quick Kabul would fall, just like er..,

    nope, can’t think of anyone to be honest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    You're probably right, of course. I was simply thinking that as the situation was clearly deteriorating very rapidly, the foreign sec might have thought to cut his trip short much sooner than he did, if not cancel it entirely to be on the safe side, not to mention the pm heading off on his holliers (seriously, how many holidays does that guy take?) just as the proverbial was hitting the fan. I know Johnson is probably thinking, sure what use would i be anyway, only getting in the way, but there's the optics, dear boy, the optics. And, of course, these lads have all those new fangled gizmos to play with nowadays, the best of the best, so probably no need for Raab to have returned at all, he could just as easily have directed operations from his Mediterranean deck chair, in his Hawaiians and special tory branded flip flops. I guess I'm just a bit old school really and obviously out of touch.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Parliament was recalled, so Raab has no choice in coming home. I’m not sure when he actually arrived in Cyprus but it wasn’t until the weekend that it becalmed apparent that the Afghan army were going to capitulate and Ghani only fled on Sunday.

    and let’s be realistic, Boris was in Somerset for the weekend. That’s a three hour drive for the average Joe and I’m pretty sure the PM can rustle up a helicopter or a police escort if he needs to do it a bit quicker.

    but realistically, what could either of them have done. This was caused by the swift withdrawal of us troops. The UK stopped military operations seven years ago and to counter the taliban March to Kabul would have involved mobilizing thousands of troops in a matter of hours, which no country is capable of doing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,473 ✭✭✭Dave0301


    What could they have done? Well Raab could have apparently made an important phone call but he didn't.

    The call that needed to happen did eventually take place, but not as quickly as it might have. Either way, the optics don't look great for Raab.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    According to the FO, the foreign secretary was "engaged in a range of other calls", so couldn't respond to the urgent task requested. Would be cool to know what this "range of calls" was that delayed the foreign secretary in coming to the assistance of vulnerable afghani allies. That's at least something he could have managed from the comfort of his beach side chair, surely?



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    You will really go to bat for the Tories on anything, won't you?

    This isn't even the worst thing that they've done.

    Possibly shows Dominic "I haven't read the GFA; Dover is really important for imports" Raab in a bad light and less than capable, but not the worst thing that this Govt have done, but you still came in here all guns blazing. I'm shocked you've not blamed the Guardian for something at this remove tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This is supposed to be a discussion forum Bonnie. Maybe that escaped your notice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    What are you inferring? Am I stopping you discussing anything?

    This is a discussion forum, I'm allowed to comment on what other users post. Maybe that escaped your notice?

    A classic response from your goodself I must say.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Thing is,no one anticipated how quickly the taliban would sweep through the country



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    And?

    What's that got to do with what I posted to Aegir?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    The tories are a bunch of incompetent,unpleasant buffoons but the whole world was caught out by the speed the Afghani army collapsed.



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