M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

18-06-2021 2:32pm

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

that is all very impressive, very laudable, and I really want to see it all in place yesterday.

However, I am a commuter from west of corrib (ps that is a large area, with a large population, with currently a huge amount of traffic travelling in and out every day) and I want to get to Parkmore/I am a business owner west of the Corrib and I want to get deliveries or make deliveries/i am a tourist who wants to get from Dublin to west of corrib/i am a hotel,bnb etc owner west of the corrib who wants my guests not to have to sit in traffic for 2 hours on a Fri evening/etc list is not exhaustive.

All above points you listed are about helping people get into the city centre, I suppose to go shopping or wandering around on a sat or whatever, as we do not have a 'business district'. What about us who do not want to go anywhere near the city centre, we want to bypass it? Why can we not have all you say above and also a road so that we can avoid town and that fcuking QB? I just do not get this view that it can only be one or the other, and others saying that this money could be used elsewhere in Ireland to fund x y z. I am only concerned about Galway (I know, how very greedy of me), and I am fed up to the teeth being on that bridge, and everyone i know is the same. I think the only people who are actually against this road are 1) those who will lose their houses or have a road on their backdoor (i understand their pain) and 2) people posting on this site.

i do not care if they reduce the number of exits and entrances to the ring road, but there needs to be a way for people to get around the city, not through it, and PT will not solve that issue, not for those who do not live in the city (but are still citizens etc so deserve to be catered for as much as possible).

Per the planning application the type of traffic you describe equates to 3% of the total volume. You don't build a ring road for that

By reducing the access and appeal of the private car, travellers switch to alternate methods of travel i.e. more sustainable options. Those who have the option (PNS, Bus, Bike, Walk, Train) free up capacity for those who have no option but to use the car.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Agreed. I expect to see some amendments to these laws once the Greens are out of power. It sounds increasingly like it will not be possible to build the infrastructure we need in a rapidly growing country.

So the claim goes, for the last few decades and yet here we are. The reason this has not been done is because there are limitations on what roadblocks can be put in place to stop objections due to the Aarhus Convention.

Any attempt to thwart this will lose in the courts

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Is that the old strawman of the ring road by itself with absolutely nothing else? Because the inevitable inclusion of PT alongside the ring road would address many of the suggestions you have made.

Asked and answered

Aontachtoir wrote: »

You promise that your "full measures" will deliver a "far higher percentage" of people walking, cycling, taking the bus, etc. How high is that increase? What figures or modelling are you basing this on? What effect would it have on overall traffic patterns in a growing city? How much would all of this cost?

Cost? A lot less than the ring road

As for the rest, evidence from all over the world where similar measures have been carried out e.g. Amsterdam, Paris, London etc

Aontachtoir wrote: »

The significant restrictions on road capacity your "full measures" scheme requires would seem likely to be restrictive enough to normal road users that it would encourage businesses to move out of the city centre to peripheral locations, where they can be more easily accessed by people who choose to or need to drive. Which is fine, I guess, but doesn't that just increase car dependency outside the city?

Whats a non-normal road user?

Where did I say cars couldn't access the city?

cgcsb · 18-06-2021 2:38pm

Compo82 wrote: »

This thread must be populated by the most anti-car individuals of any thread on the roads section. There are huge new estates going up on the Ballymoneen rd and Clybaun rd in Knocknacarra, so I don't know where all the traffic is going to go.

I wonder if you took an actual survey of people in Galway and see what percentage is in favour of the bypass, I's say it's well over 70%.

The bypass is needed if Galway is going to grow as a city and if it is to attract further investment from multinationals. I'm not against further public transport but the bypass is needed first before putting in further bus lanes. The Gluas would be just a extreme waste of money as the people along the line would only benefit and Galway is just too small from a Gluas.

That's an ironic statement, the modelling shows the bypass would cater to 3% of traffic but the gluas is a waste of money??

KrisW1001 · 18-06-2021 2:50pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Is that the old strawman of the ring road by itself with absolutely nothing else?

The reality is that, at the current pricing of around €1bn for the N6 ring road project, it can only be “the ring road by itself with absolutely nothing else”. If this ring road is funded, then Galway won’t be in line for any more transport funding for a long time afterwards.

18-06-2021 3:05pm

Given the discussion and how it relates to car dependency versus other modes, this 5 min video sums it up nicely

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGgBoEpLQdQ

fmlarnapairce · 18-06-2021 3:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Per the planning application the type of traffic you describe equates to 3% of the total volume. You don't build a ring road for that

I am not sure I can believe that figure (I know, it was put forward by people who want the road built), but if it is true, and only 3% of the traffic are like me, then why is the QB like a car park most of every day? Surely the 97% of city traffic would turn off at the hospital roundabout or(edit) the tesco junction and head into town, why bother crossing the bridge if they do not want to go around the town? To me that would imply that most people want to get from one side of Galway city to the other without going through the city.

As per other (Timmy), I do not care where they put the ring road as long as I am not sitting on the QB moving at 1m/hr. But I imagine for reasons of geography (i.e. river) they have to build it where it is planned to go. But I am not up to speed on that to be honest, just surmising.

timmyntc · 18-06-2021 3:12pm

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Per the planning application the type of traffic you describe equates to 3% of the total volume. You don't build a ring road for that

I am not sure I can believe that figure (I know, it was put forward by people who want the road built), but if it is true, and only 3% of the traffic are like me, then why is the QB like a car park most of every day? Surely the 97% of city traffic would turn off at the hospital roundabout or(edit) the tesco junction and head into town, why bother crossing the bridge if they do not want to go around the town? To me that would imply that most people want to get from one side of Galway city to the other without going through the city.

As per other (Timmy), I do not care where they put the ring road as long as I am not sitting on the QB moving at 1m/hr. But I imagine for reasons of geography (i.e. river) they have to build it where it is planned to go. But I am not up to speed on that to be honest, just surmising.

Parkmore and Briarhill are still in "the city" - so traffic going from West of corrib to Parkmore is still city traffic.

The people going to Parkmore or Briarhill could easily be served by buses, or if they live outside the city, park & ride.
That & bus lanes over QCB are the only way to solve your traffic problem. New roads will not.

If you build a bypass, it will get backed up at the Parkmore exit and that will back up onto the bypass itself, and sure enough you will get stuck in traffic there too.

fmlarnapairce · 18-06-2021 3:34pm

timmyntc wrote: »

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

Parkmore and Briarhill are still in "the city" - so traffic going from West of corrib to Parkmore is still city traffic.

The people going to Parkmore or Briarhill could easily be served by buses, or if they live outside the city, park & ride.
That & bus lanes over QCB are the only way to solve your traffic problem. New roads will not.

If you build a bypass, it will get backed up at the Parkmore exit and that will back up onto the bypass itself, and sure enough you will get stuck in traffic there too.

fair enough, but do you think people from west of corrib are going to drive to a pnr on west of corrib, get on a bus to parkmore/briarhill? maybe they will, I wouldn't chose to anyway unless the PnR service was of a quality that i have never seen existing anywhere in Ireland or the world (on my many ring road based fact finding missions)

18-06-2021 3:55pm

timmyntc wrote: »

fair enough, but do you think people from west of corrib are going to drive to a pnr on west of corrib, get on a bus to parkmore/briarhill? maybe they will, I wouldn't chose to anyway unless the PnR service was of a quality that i have never seen existing anywhere in Ireland or the world (on my many ring road based fact finding missions)

If the journey times are
car - 1+ hour
bus - 25 mins
bike - 40 mins / 20 mins for an ebike/scooter (thanks Sam)

Then the alternatives become attractive to a lot of workers.

Pre-covid, when I had the car, any time I went to Dublin I parked up at the red cow P&R and got the Luas in from there. In the case of Galway it would be a bus

Btw, the 3% figure I mentioned which you quoted, thats not mine, that is coming from the ring road planning application and is repeated in the GTS. That is coming from the analysis done by the folks proposing the ring road and I believe their source was the CSO

Sam Russell · 18-06-2021 4:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If the journey times are
car - 1+ hour
bus - 25 mins
bike - 40 mins

Then the alternatives become attractive to a lot of workers.

Pre-covid, when I had the car, any time I went to Dublin I parked up at the red cow P&R and got the Luas in from there. In the case of Galway it would be a bus

Btw, the 3% figure I mentioned which you quoted, thats not mine, that is coming from the ring road planning application and is repeated in the GTS. That is coming from the analysis done by the folks proposing the ring road and I believe their source was the CSO

You could add:

car - 1+ hour
bus - 25 mins
bike - 40 mins
Electric e-scooter - 15 mins. (This is a game changer if it is legalised).

Another game changer will be the shared cars - like the Dublin Go-cars. And the added option of shared e-scooters, just like the Dublin Bikes.

what_traffic · 18-06-2021 5:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That is coming from the analysis done by the folks proposing the ring road and I believe their source was the CSO

I think they also did a number plate analysis/surveys as well, been a while since I read up on this part of the ARUP. Its 2015 data? but it will not have changed much since. Galway City is the destination for the vast majority 90%+ of road users on the approach roads to the City

DrSerious3 · 18-06-2021 6:44pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have to say, watching the progression of the first bypass through the processes and now the ring road that its truly astounding to see how much attitudes have changed in relation to this road, sustainable travel in Galway, climate change and alternative ways of achieving similar results.

Originally I was an ardent supporter of the original bypass and initially the ring road too (you'll find lots of posts on here from me supporting it) but as I educated myself more on planning, infrastructure, sustainable travel, active travel, etc I came to realise that this ring road could be a 6 lane both-ways motorway and would still not solve Galway's traffic problems.

None so zealous as the converted

Sam Russell · 18-06-2021 8:26pm

DrSerious3 wrote: »

None so zealous as the converted

The converted are usually convinced.

Aontachtoir · 18-06-2021 11:33pm

DrSerious3 wrote: »

None so zealous as the converted

The fervour and conviction reminds of the born-again Christians I met years ago in the States. Same energy, except they're preaching the green Gospel to us heathens.

Deleted User wrote: »

So the claim goes, for the last few decades and yet here we are. The reason this has not been done is because there are limitations on what roadblocks can be put in place to stop objections due to the Aarhus Convention.

Any attempt to thwart this will lose in the courts

We ratified it in 2012, and it's only been since then that environmental objections have started to go bananas. If it becomes a serious obstacle to development in this country I would expect a sensible government to repeal the most onerous and over-reaching parts, keeping things out of the courts. We'll give it a while for now though and see whether people are reasonable.

Deleted User wrote: »

Asked and answered

And always immediately followed by another statement considering the bypass in isolation, pretending no PT will be provided. It's tiresome.

Deleted User wrote: »

Cost? A lot less than the ring road

As for the rest, evidence from all over the world where similar measures have been carried out e.g. Amsterdam, Paris, London etc

Actual figures would be very helpful. Given the amount of inanity going on in this thread over the price tag of the bypass, it seems a bit much to present "unlimited deluxe PT+++" as an alternative without providing some sort of objective cost estimate. If you can't, it would suggest you haven't really considered your plan in any significant detail.

Separately, I've been to Amsterdam, Paris, and London, and they're as crowded and slow-moving as any city I've ever been in. You either sit stuck in traffic or you sit jammed in public transport. Is that your vision for Galway?

TnxM17 · 19-06-2021 12:19am

Aontachtoir wrote: »

The fervour and conviction reminds of the born-again Christians I met years ago in the States. Same energy, except they're preaching the green Gospel to us heathens.

We ratified it in 2012, and it's only been since then that environmental objections have started to go bananas. If it becomes a serious obstacle to development in this country I would expect a sensible government to repeal the most onerous and over-reaching parts, keeping things out of the courts. We'll give it a while for now though and see whether people are reasonable.

And always immediately followed by another statement considering the bypass in isolation, pretending no PT will be provided. It's tiresome.

Actual figures would be very helpful. Given the amount of inanity going on in this thread over the price tag of the bypass, it seems a bit much to present "unlimited deluxe PT+++" as an alternative without providing some sort of objective cost estimate. If you can't, it would suggest you haven't really considered your plan in any significant detail.

You are right to seek more 'figures', I would be interested in seeing them also.
But I would also like to see your figures.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Separately, I've been to Amsterdam, Paris, and London, and they're as crowded and slow-moving as any city I've ever been in. You either sit stuck in traffic or you sit jammed in public transport. Is that your vision for Galway?

It seems you took the only options available to you- driving or Public Transport - there are other options available like cycling or perhaps walking which may have resulted in a better experience.

Covidhaveago · 19-06-2021 11:20am

I'm not necessarily on board with the environmental concerns around the proposed bypass. My main concern is value for money.

Is it a good idea to spend a billion euro on a bypass to nowhere for what is essentially a medium sized town? Is there really a pressing need to connect rural, sparsely populated West/North Co. Galway to the Motorway network? Is it the best use of public monies to facilitate people who choose to live in rural one-offs to commute long distances into the Galway urban area?

To an impartial observer, the answers to the above questions are all clear and obvious no's. There are multiple road and PT projects nationally where a billion euro could be better spent including, it seems, within the Galway urban area itself (bus connects/gluas).

Perhaps one way to address the cost concerns is to put a tolling system in place on the bypass - just like there is in Dublin, Waterford and the Limerick tunnel. If Galway locals really want it, then they can pay for it, rather than putting taxpayers (primarily in the east of the country) on the hook to pay for it. It's in the east where that billion euro of public money would achieve far better value for money if spent on PT projects.

pryingEyes999 · 22-06-2021 1:57pm

This has now been pushed to August by all accounts. How are these deadlines if they are just pushed back all the time?

https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/302848

xckjoo · 22-06-2021 2:23pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Good question. The healthcare service clearly doesn't have enough capacity, and the more healthcare services we provide, the more people seem to be using them. No matter how many operating rooms we build, no matter how big the A&Es are, no matter how many beds we open, there never seems to be enough. Patient numbers keep rising to take account of expansions in service. If this isn't induced demand, how does it meaningfully differ?

So, do we leave people languishing in waiting rooms and on waiting lists? Or do we invest in expanding infrastructure along with more public health measures? What are your thoughts on this?

People don't get sick because hospitals are built but they do buy and use cars in response to new roads.

Anyway, this is your conjecture so you have to prove it exists and not just ask people to prove it's doesn't. Throw up some links that discuss induced demand in healthcare and then there might be grounds for a discussion.

Aontachtoir wrote: »

Almost certainly. Most planning applications cost a few million - peanuts in the overall picture, if we're casually talking about spending several hundred million on light rail for Galway. Same with your other objections about scarcity of resources. Of course we are dealing with scarce resources. That's why we're even talking about this.

You're acknowledging that there's limitations in resources but you're still just talking about "do it all" and haven't given any kind of figures or explanation on how you'd get around bottleneck issues.

Covidhaveago wrote: »

I'm not necessarily on board with the environmental concerns around the proposed bypass. My main concern is value for money.

Is it a good idea to spend a billion euro on a bypass to nowhere for what is essentially a medium sized town? Is there really a pressing need to connect rural, sparsely populated West/North Co. Galway to the Motorway network? Is it the best use of public monies to facilitate people who choose to live in rural one-offs to commute long distances into the Galway urban area?

To an impartial observer, the answers to the above questions are all clear and obvious no's. There are multiple road and PT projects nationally where a billion euro could be better spent including, it seems, within the Galway urban area itself (bus connects/gluas).

Perhaps one way to address the cost concerns is to put a tolling system in place on the bypass - just like there is in Dublin, Waterford and the Limerick tunnel. If Galway locals really want it, then they can pay for it, rather than putting taxpayers (primarily in the east of the country) on the hook to pay for it. It's in the east where that billion euro of public money would achieve far better value for money if spent on PT projects.

I'm on a similar page to yourself. I'd be against the environmental impact on a personal level but if I thought it would fix traffic issues then I'd accept it. But nothing I've seen points towards it helping.

I also think the toll is a good idea. It would be interesting to see how many people are still in favor of it if there was going to be a toll

fmlarnapairce · 22-06-2021 2:31pm

xckjoo wrote: »

People don't get sick because hospitals are built but they do buy and use cars in response to new roads.

Anyway, this is your conjecture so you have to prove it exists and not just ask people to prove it's doesn't. Throw up some links that discuss induced demand in healthcare and then there might be grounds for a discussion.

You're acknowledging that there's limitations in resources but you're still just talking about "do it all" and haven't given any kind of figures or explanation on how you'd get around bottleneck issues.

I'm on a similar page to yourself. I'd be against the environmental impact on a personal level but if I thought it would fix traffic issues then I'd accept it. But nothing I've seen points towards it helping.

I also think the toll is a good idea. It would be interesting to see how many people are still in favor of it if there was going to be a toll

i'd pay it if it took me off the QB

Sam Russell · 22-06-2021 8:05pm

I was in Galway today and it took about 20 mins to go 1 km. Reason - traffic lights were letting 3 cars through per light cycle. Other delights were no-right turns where a turn was required - they have them all over the place.

Pure madness - and the traffic light sequences in Galway are nuts. The whole place appears to be designed to cause traffic chaos to increase the apparent need for yet another bypass.

Bothar na Dtreabh has plenty of room along most of its length to accommodate a cycle way and dedicated bus lanes - except at the obvious pinch points. Make those pinch points free flow with proper junctions with over bridges and problem solved from the Coolagh Roundabout (Coolagh overbridge) as far as the Tuam Road Junction (Tuam Road Overbridge) and perhaps Terryland.

What happens between the Tuam Rd, Terryland, Newcastle, and the Western Distributor Road requires a large amount of thought, but the crossing of the Corrib will dictate that solution.

Spend the savings of not building the bypass on the necessary improvements to PT, cycleways, and proper traffic handling.

They have tried roundabouts - they did not work. They added traffic lights to the roundabouts - that did not work. They have tried multiway junctions controlled by lights - they did not work. Now they want a billion euro to have a go to build a motorway from Barna to the Coolagh Roundabout.

22-06-2021 8:21pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Bothar na Dtreabh has plenty of room along most of its length to accommodate a cycle way and dedicated bus lanes - except at the obvious pinch points. Make those pinch points free flow with proper junctions with over bridges and problem solved from the Coolagh Roundabout (Coolagh overbridge) as far as the Tuam Road Junction (Tuam Road Overbridge) and perhaps Terryland.

Sure, if you wish to build a car dependent city where the car rules supreme

Also, why do you want to build a bus lane on a road where nobody lives or works on it for most of its length. You keep harping on about this and it beggars belief as to what purpose it would serve.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Spend the savings of not building the bypass on the necessary improvements to PT, cycleways, and proper traffic handling.

Brilliant idea

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have tried roundabouts - they did not work.

They did, until they reached capacity as they did nothing to drive adoption of other modes so everyone drove and clogged up the roads

Sam Russell wrote: »

They added traffic lights to the roundabouts - that did not work.

They did, until they reached capacity as they did nothing to drive adoption of other modes so everyone drove and clogged up the roads

Sam Russell wrote: »

They have tried multiway junctions controlled by lights - they did not work.

They did, until they reached capacity as they did nothing to drive adoption of other modes so everyone drove and clogged up the roads

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now they want a billion euro to have a go to build a motorway from Barna to the Coolagh Roundabout.

I know, crazy isnt it

Sam Russell · 22-06-2021 8:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Sure, if you wish to build a car dependent city where the car rules supreme

Also, why do you want to build a bus lane on a road where nobody lives or works on it for most of its length. You keep harping on about this and it beggars belief as to what purpose it would serve.

The bus lane is to allow buses to travel along the road at some reasonable speed and pass all those cars stuck in traffic. They put a bus lane along the N11 instead of the hard shoulder to hurry the buses along - it worked.

Buses can drive on roads where nobody lives - they just have to stop to pick up passengers who might live close by, or maybe walk or cycle a bit to get there. The problem in Galway is that many of the houses where people live are in the West (Knocknacarra) and their jobs are in the East (Parkmore, Ballybrit, Monivea). If a full bus leaves Knocknacarra to carry those passengers to their work in the industrial estates in the East, why would they not use those bus lanes along the N6?

[By the way, I am not in favour of cars over PT and cycle ways.]

Aontachtoir · 22-06-2021 9:10pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem in Galway is that many of the houses where people live are in the West (Knocknacarra) and their jobs are in the East (Parkmore, Ballybrit, Monivea).

If only there were some proposed solution to allow people to easily travel from west to east and back again without going through the city.

Sam Russell · 22-06-2021 9:35pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

If only there were some proposed solution to allow people to easily travel from west to east and back again without going through the city.

There is - put bus lanes down Bothar na Dtreabh along with cycle lanes, and put free flow junctions at the various junctions that are pinch points. From Terryland, put a new bridge across the Corrib to Newcastle and improve the Western Distributor Road, so traffic can actually flow along it.

Aontachtoir · 22-06-2021 10:19pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is - put bus lanes down Bothar na Dtreabh along with cycle lanes, and put free flow junctions at the various junctions that are pinch points. From Terryland, put a new bridge across the Corrib to Newcastle and improve the Western Distributor Road, so traffic can actually flow along it.

Sounds great to me. Installing this sort of transport infrastructure alongside the bypass will help to unblock traffic and keep peripheral and cross-city transport flowing for years to come. It'll also make it easier to route PT throughout the city. This is the thinking we need in a congested city which is due to have a 50% expansion in population.

fmlarnapairce · 23-06-2021 9:08am

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is - put bus lanes down Bothar na Dtreabh along with cycle lanes, and put free flow junctions at the various junctions that are pinch points. From Terryland, put a new bridge across the Corrib to Newcastle and improve the Western Distributor Road, so traffic can actually flow along it.

so put two bridges beside each other? what would that serve? still traffic jams all the way up to the QB and it's new sibling.
everyone from barna west needs to drive as far as the amazing PnR, get out of their cars, hop into a bus, and carry on their journeys. Do you think that will happen? and what if their journey requires them to go further than the other end of the PnR? or they are tourists/business deliveries etc?
Galway city needs to be bypassed, so that those who DO NOT WANT TO GO INTO THE CITY can get around it. If this bypass had no exits during it's course, but allowed people to get on in the west, and get off in the east (and vice versa), I would be happy.
ps when i lived in Galway city, i cycled every day. every single day, every place. Galway is a joke for cycling, dangerous, f all proper cycle lanes, crazy (not as crazy as dublin) drivers (and some stupid cyclists I might add). i cannot see where cycle lanes will fit in the city centre along with bus lanes. My favourite cycle lane in the country is the quays in dublin, some craic sharing them with Dublin bus.

fmlarnapairce · 23-06-2021 9:11am

It seems that many here hate cars. But of those who are against the bypass, can I ask you to tell us if you own a car or not?
What difference does this make I hear you ask?
No difference, but I would like to know if you put your money where your mouth is and as you hate cars so much, have decided not to own one or use one.
Full disclosure, I have a car and 6 bikes.

xckjoo · 23-06-2021 9:37am

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

It seems that many here hate cars. But of those who are against the bypass, can I ask you to tell us if you own a car or not?
What difference does this make I hear you ask?
No difference, but I would like to know if you put your money where your mouth is and as you hate cars so much, have decided not to own one or use one.
Full disclosure, I have a car and 6 bikes.

Don't own one. Got rid of it because it was more hassle than it was worth. I am lucky enough to be on a couple of peoples insurance so can probably use one any time I need to. Don't generally need it but every now and then it would be hard to do without. GoCar is always an option too.

But I don't hate cars. Thinking anyone that disagrees with the ring road is anti-car is a massive, massive misunderstanding of the issues.

Cars have revolutionised travel and mobility, but they're incredibly inefficient at moving large volumes of people around; particularly for things like work where you have thousands of people coming from roughly the same area and going to roughly the same area at the same times, every day. I'm against the continuous prioritisation of private car usage over all other forms of transport. It should go walking->PT->cycling and similar->private cars. I'd personally chose cycling as my main means of commuting. It's quick, efficient, fun and free exercise/good for the head. But I appreciate it's not for everyone and PT should be prioritised ahead of it. Walking is on top since that's what we are born to do, all age groups do it and it's where we're most vulnerable. I'm also including people with mobility issues in this group and all infrastructure should be designed with them in mind. Private cars are at the bottom since they're so inefficient and clog up the transport infrastructure.

TLDR: I don't hate cars. I hate waste and ineffective planning.

23-06-2021 9:41am

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

It seems that many here hate cars. But of those who are against the bypass, can I ask you to tell us if you own a car or not?
What difference does this make I hear you ask?
No difference, but I would like to know if you put your money where your mouth is and as you hate cars so much, have decided not to own one or use one.
Full disclosure, I have a car and 6 bikes.

Up until Oct last year I had a car and have 2 bikes. Sold the car when WFH became permanent

Since getting rid of the car I use the bike, bus & trains to get around. Have also used GoCar too when the need arose

I live in a commuter town, my place of work is in the ind estates on the east of the city and all my family live on the west side of the city who I visit regularly. The difference for me now when I visit them is I hop on a train or bus into Eyre Square, grab a bike from the stands and cycle out through the University along the river to the west side of the city. A nice, relaxing journey.

I can't speak for others but I don't hate cars. Same as everything, they serve a purpose and they have a place.

Doesn't mean I think spending close to 1 billion on a road that won't fix any problems is a good idea.

It also doesn't mean I think cars should have free reign over the city like they have done for the last 50 years.

I think you'll find life is not black and white. There's lots of grey area

So just because I disagree with the silly ring road idea doesn't mean I hate cars.

To put it another way, I strongly believe in increased investment in rail in Ireland, however I do not support another penny going into the Western Rail Corridor. That doesn't mean I hate rail though many on the WRC thread would like to paint it that way

fmlarnapairce · 23-06-2021 9:48am

Apologies for equating being anti ring road/ineffective planning with hating cars, that was a silly jump.
I would love to not need a car, but unfortunately due to where I live, I need one.
If that changes, I would gladly get rid and just cycle everywhere, including bringing kids on bikes to school/creche etc (all weather).
ps the road out west is not exactly safe for bicycles as I am sure many on this thread are well aware.

timmyntc · 23-06-2021 9:56am

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

It seems that many here hate cars. But of those who are against the bypass, can I ask you to tell us if you own a car or not?
What difference does this make I hear you ask?
No difference, but I would like to know if you put your money where your mouth is and as you hate cars so much, have decided not to own one or use one.
Full disclosure, I have a car and 6 bikes.

I have a car, drive to work outside the city (buses arent frequent enough) but I recognise that space in city roads is at a premium, and that cars are very inefficient use of space.

Even if you build more roads, cars will quickly swallow all that extra capacity and you will be at worse gridlock than before. You need density on the roads, buses/trams/trains etc.

The ring road* will just take some commuter traffic off QCB and onto ring road, there will still be congestion at all junctions and especially turning off to Ballybrit/Parkmore. It simply isn't the silver bullet people think it is, and for €1 billion is not value for money.

*Its officially designated as Galway City Ring Road, not a bypass.

fmlarnapairce · 23-06-2021 10:08am

timmyntc wrote: »

I have a car, drive to work outside the city (buses arent frequent enough) but I recognise that space in city roads is at a premium, and that cars are very inefficient use of space.

Even if you build more roads, cars will quickly swallow all that extra capacity and you will be at worse gridlock than before. You need density on the roads, buses/trams/trains etc.

The ring road* will just take some commuter traffic off QCB and onto ring road, there will still be congestion at all junctions and especially turning off to Ballybrit/Parkmore. It simply isn't the silver bullet people think it is, and for €1 billion is not value for money.

*Its officially designated as Galway City Ring Road, not a bypass.

Question, would you use the Galway City Ring Road if it was built, i.e. is it on your route to work?

Would proposed improvements to PT in Galway city improve your commute? Would you use an improved PT system for getting to work?

timmyntc · 23-06-2021 10:23am

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

Question, would you use the Galway City Ring Road if it was built, i.e. is it on your route to work?

Would proposed improvements to PT in Galway city improve your commute? Would you use an improved PT system for getting to work?

Probably would use it, I'm sure it would save 5mins each way.

My case is unique though in that I work outside the city but live in it - so I would need better regional buses. I still use buses to go into the city center for pubs, restaurants etc so would like better PT infra and bus lanes for that reason.

But really its about more than me, its about the city. The city is strangled by traffic and poor planning, the only way to grow is density. Density in developments (apartments etc) and density in transport (buses/trains for commuters). Another big road straddling the city boundary is not density, or good planning.

spacetweek · 23-06-2021 8:09pm

fmlarnapairce wrote: »

It seems that many here hate cars. But of those who are against the bypass, can I ask you to tell us if you own a car or not?
What difference does this make I hear you ask?
No difference, but I would like to know if you put your money where your mouth is and as you hate cars so much, have decided not to own one or use one.
Full disclosure, I have a car and 6 bikes.

You know there's such a thing as a happy medium, right? I own a car but I don't like excessive car use.
Galway has car usage levels way above everywhere else in Ireland according to international observers and indeed above many other parts of the world too. The city effectively has no public transport since bus lanes are so rare and frequency so low. Rainy cities in Scandinavia and the Netherlands have high levels of cycling (and great infrastructure). Let's overhaul Galway transport.

fmlarnapairce · 23-06-2021 8:20pm

spacetweek wrote: »

You know there's such a thing as a happy medium, right? I own a car but I don't like excessive car use.
Galway has car usage levels way above everywhere else in Ireland according to international observers and indeed above many other parts of the world too. The city effectively has no public transport since bus lanes are so rare and frequency so low. Rainy cities in Scandinavia and the Netherlands have high levels of cycling (and great infrastructure). Let's overhaul Galway transport.

i'm all for happy mediums, improved PT for those in the city (and those from outside the city who want to go to the city centre) and a nice road to allow those who want to skirt the city do so. everyone's happy.

would you have any references for those studies from the international observers, would be interested to read them (I am not being sarcastic or whatever the word is).

tharlear · 23-06-2021 10:31pm

The city is strangled by traffic and poor planning, the only way to grow is density. Density in developments (apartments etc) and density in transport (buses/trains for commuters). Another big road straddling the city boundary is not density, or good planning.

The evidence on the ground suggests that people do not want to live in these "high density dwellings". Evidence, drive up any side road or boreen in Co. Galway. Galway’s development is proof of the law of unintended consequences, the higher the density of new housing developments the less dense the county becomes overall, as people opt for one off developments in the county. In the 90's Salthill Knockcarra were a football powerhouse, then it moved to Corrofin. Look at the up and coming U10 and U12 football teams if you want to know where the housing development happened in the last 10 years. It’s not in the city.

A high density core for students and people who want apartment living, a medium density layer with lower density suburbs, may encourage people to stay close to the city.
Otherwise it will be just more one off development east of the city. Lots of houses will be concentrated in rural areas within 5 mile of junctions on m6,m17,m18. Corrofin/Turloughmore, Athenry, Ardrahan, and a couple of miles around Tuam and Gort.

riddlinrussell · 24-06-2021 3:42pm

tharlear wrote: »

The evidence on the ground suggests that people do not want to live in these "high density dwellings". Evidence, drive up any side road or boreen in Co. Galway. Galway’s development is proof of the law of unintended consequences, the higher the density of new housing developments the less dense the county becomes overall, as people opt for one off developments in the county. In the 90's Salthill Knockcarra were a football powerhouse, then it moved to Corrofin. Look at the up and coming U10 and U12 football teams if you want to know where the housing development happened in the last 10 years. It’s not in the city.

A high density core for students and people who want apartment living, a medium density layer with lower density suburbs, may encourage people to stay close to the city.
Otherwise it will be just more one off development east of the city. Lots of houses will be concentrated in rural areas within 5 mile of junctions on m6,m17,m18. Corrofin/Turloughmore, Athenry, Ardrahan, and a couple of miles around Tuam and Gort.

If you actually enforce bans on one-off development you don't get one-off development, its pretty simple. Far too many in the planning process are far too keen to allow such a damaging way of development to keep going

Fred Cryton · 26-06-2021 2:28pm

spacetweek wrote: »

You know there's such a thing as a happy medium, right? I own a car but I don't like excessive car use.
Galway has car usage levels way above everywhere else in Ireland according to international observers and indeed above many other parts of the world too. The city effectively has no public transport since bus lanes are so rare and frequency so low. Rainy cities in Scandinavia and the Netherlands have high levels of cycling (and great infrastructure). Let's overhaul Galway transport.

Other cities in Scandinavia and Netherlands are much more densely built, with city centre apartment living rather than urban sprawl like Galway, which makes public transport viable. They also planned ahead for public transport 50 or 100 years ago. Galway didn't.

I am sick and tired of certain Irish people pretending our cities are built like on the continent. They're not. They're built more like LA. Cannot turn back the clock. We should accept Irish cities are largely car dependent, and therefore make them more car friendly, not less. If you want to do your virtue signalling on the environment then get electric car.

donvito99 · 26-06-2021 2:44pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

We should accept Irish cities are largely car dependent, and therefore make them more car friendly, not less.

"We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas..."

Sam Russell · 26-06-2021 2:55pm

Fred Cryton wrote: »

Other cities in Scandinavia and Netherlands are much more densely built, with city centre apartment living rather than urban sprawl like Galway, which makes public transport viable. They also planned ahead for public transport 50 or 100 years ago. Galway didn't.

I am sick and tired of certain Irish people pretending our cities are built like on the continent. They're not. They're built more like LA. Cannot turn back the clock. We should accept Irish cities are largely car dependent, and therefore make them more car friendly, not less. If you want to do your virtue signalling on the environment then get electric car.

Car dependent only works if you accept that there is no end to building roads to accommodate more and more cars. In the end, not only do you run out of space for the roads, you run out of parking spaces.

Cars are the problem, not the solution. Shared cars, like the Go-Car in Dublin, might help, but more roads only makes matters worse.

By the way, how do those who do not drive because they are too young or too old, or just cannot drive for health or other reasons, get on?

Thelonious Monk · 26-06-2021 4:04pm

Our cities kind of are built like those on the continent in the centres anyway, only we decided to pack as many cars into them as possible instead of restricting cars and encouraging walking and cycling and public transport.

Bobeagleburger · 26-06-2021 4:23pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Our cities kind of are built like those on the continent in the centres anyway, only we decided to pack as many cars into them as possible instead of restricting cars and encouraging walking and cycling and public transport.

No need to be driving through the city tbh, Galway is a tiny city. If the roads are there we will do it though.

The days of cars as city driving through cities are numbered anyway tbh. Maybe not in the short term but it's coming.

KrisW1001 · 28-06-2021 10:22am

Fred Cryton wrote: »

I am sick and tired of certain Irish people pretending our cities are built like on the continent. They're not. They're built more like LA. Cannot turn back the clock. We should accept Irish cities are largely car dependent, and therefore make them more car friendly, not less. If you want to do your virtue signalling on the environment then get electric car.

Galway west is built like LA, and it’s an outlier. Other cities in the country are planned with development concentrated around population centres.

”Build for the car” is a colossal mistake, and it makes cities unliveable in. You can see that by looking at the first adopters of the pattern, in the USA who are now trying to undo the mess it has got them into. For example, Dallas has abandoned car-centred planning, and is now pursuing a programme of re-densification of the city and public-transport provision, and the only new road capacity has been built around the city has been tolled.

If even the Texans have accepted you can’t just drive everywhere, maybe it’s not virtue signalling, and it’s just a realisation that it was a stupid idea in the first place.

spacetweek · 06-08-2021 8:50pm

The last I heard on this it was due to have a planning decision made by the end of June. What's the latest?

13-08-2021 3:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117717373#Comment_117717373

That got pushed back. Decision is due this month...... If that doesn't get pushed back too

tharlear · 13-08-2021 5:27pm

So this thread stated with a decision due NOV of 2008.

Now in Aug 2021, DaCOR wonders if the "pushed back June date" will be pushed back?

13-08-2021 7:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117748713#Comment_117748713

That was a different road 😉

14-08-2021 12:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117749310#Comment_117749310

But going around the same town, or not as seems to be the case.

marno21 · 16-08-2021 11:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117717373#Comment_117717373

27th August. No guarantee that won't be deferred again.

All things aside, it'll be 3 years with ABP in October. That's downright appalling.

17-08-2021 1:19pm

So much has changed in the last few years, environmentally speaking. It's hard to see how this will ever be built

I know my own perspective on this road has shifted from one of unwavering support to now being 100% dead against it after removing emotion from the equation and educating myself on alternatives.

Aontachtoir · 18-08-2021 2:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117764725#Comment_117764725

It's crazy. And that's before we even get started on the inevitable judicial reviews and vexatious appeal after vexatious appeal after vexatious appeal. The planning system in this country is simply no longer fit for purpose. The good news is that now even bike lanes and similar environmentalist measures are falling afoul of our ridiculous system, and the anti-car crowd are up in arms after getting a taste of their own medicine. The winds are turning rapidly in favour of some serious reform.

Until then, we'll just have to sit tight. The road will probably get through the process eventually, like the M28 did. But how much time and money will be squandered in the meantime?

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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