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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Abortion services in the North offered on ‘make do and mend’ basis, MLAs warned

    Abortion services in Northern Ireland are being offered on a “make do and mend” basis due to the failure to properly commission them, MLAs have been told.

    The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission told the Assembly’s Health Committee that the ad hoc services being offered by health trusts were “deeply unsatisfactory” and not in accordance with abortion law in the region.

    Chief commissioner Les Allamby said during the pandemic women who were unable to access services in Northern Ireland have been travelling to Liverpool and Manchester for terminations, often having to return on the same day due to the lack of accommodation in lockdown.

    Abortion laws in Northern Ireland were liberalised in 2019 following legislation passed by Westminster at a time when devolution in the region had collapsed.

    However, while individual health trusts have been offering services on an ad hoc basis, the Department of Health had yet to centrally commission the services due to an ongoing impasse within the Executive.

    Mr Allamby, who stressed that the commission took neither a pro-choice or anti-abortion position, said the current situation was not acceptable.

    Last month, a judge at Belfast High Court heard a legal challenge taken by the Commission against the failure to commission services centrally. Judgment has been reserved in that case.

    The chief commissioner said the services currently offered by trusts were limited to early medical abortions prior to 10 weeks.

    He said there had been an inconsistent offering, with three of the five trusts having suspended services for periods – a suspension that is still in effect in the Western Trust.

    “It’s also clear that none of those trusts when they suspended the services were able to refer women to other parts of Northern Ireland to access the service,” he told MLAs.

    “So there’s been a make do and mend approach, frankly through heroic efforts of clinicians within trusts.

    “Two of the three suspensions, for example, were because the one person who was providing the service was no longer able to do so.”

    Mr Allamby said services had only been offered by transferring staff from other sexual and reproductive health care services that had experienced reduced demand due to the pandemic.

    “The Department of Health has provided no guidance, public information or other tangible support for the service,” he said.

    “What the trusts were saying to us was that they are used to managing risk, and normally do so within a clear framework and operational guidance. And here what we’re being asked to do this without such a framework. The reality is the service has not met the legal requirements.”

    He added: “I must emphasise that the service is not in accordance with the abortion regulations, its provision is precarious, it’s prone to suspension, and in the near term can only be provided at the expense of other sexual and reproductive health care services.

    Stormont Health Minister Robin Swann has maintained he cannot centrally commission services without the approval of the wider five-party coalition Executive, insisting it is his legal responsibility to refer controversial or significant decisions to the other ministers.

    However, for such an issue to secure Executive approval, the two main parties, the DUP and Sinn Féin, must both agree to it.

    The anti-abortion DUP has to date blocked consideration of the commissioning issue at the Executive.

    In March, the Government intervened to hand Northern Ireland Secretary Brandon Lewis new powers to direct the Department of Health to commission the services.

    However, Mr Lewis has yet to act on these powers.

    Mr Allamby said he agreed with Mr Swann’s position that approval of the wider Executive would be required to commission the services.

    The Commission’s legal challenge was taken against the Government, Executive and Department of Health.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.rte.ie/news/health/2021/0610/1227334-abortion-statistics/

    The number of people from Ireland who travelled to England and Wales for abortions last year declined.

    Official statistics from the UK Department of Health show that 194 women and girls travelled from the Republic during 2020, down from 375 in 2019.

    Well, there was a pandemic on... so how many women who were let down by Irish law ended up being forced to give birth?

    The Abortion Rights Campaign has pointed out that people who travelled did so in a year that was dominated by Covid-19 and lockdowns.

    Spokesperson Joanne Neary said that despite the legalisation of abortion in the Republic, and the decriminalisation of abortion in Northern Ireland, "there clearly remain grossly unacceptable gaps in the service provision on this island".
    The National Women's Council used statistics from 2019 in a recent report to mark the 3rd anniversary of the referendum on the Eighth Amendment.

    It showed that one in 10 GPs and 10 out 19 hospitals were providing abortion services.

    The report said women in rural areas, particularly in the north west and those from marginalised backgrounds, faced extra challenges in accessing services.


    1 in 10 GPs and barely over half of maternity hospitals :rolleyes:

    It's not nearly good enough, and it's unacceptable that women, often in tragic circumstances, still have to travel to another country.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Gibralter - Votes 'yes' to easing abortion laws

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/gibraltar-votes-yes-to-easing-abortion-laws/ar-AALn6rU
    MSN.com wrote:
    Gibraltar voted by a large majority to ease its draconian abortion laws in a referendum delayed for over a year by the coronavirus pandemic, results showed early Friday. Some 62 percent of voters cast their ballots in favour of an amended law allowing abortion where a woman's mental or physical health is at risk -- such as in cases of rape or incest -- or when foetuses have fatal physical defects.

    Just over 36 percent voted against the move in a ballot that exposed sharply opposing views within this normally closely-knit British enclave at the southernmost tip of Spain that is home to some 32,000 people. Turnout was 52.75 percent.

    At present, abortion is banned in Gibraltar on pain of life imprisonment, although such a penalty has not been applied in modern times. The only exception is where it would save the mother's life The amended law will mean a woman will be able to undergo an abortion up to 12 weeks into her pregnancy if her mental or physical health is deemed at risk, or beyond if such damage would be grave and permanent.

    [...]


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,138 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    EU passes Abortion as a human right resolution: https://www.politico.eu/article/meps-adopt-divisive-text-on-abortion/

    The MEP who proposed it, of course is getting death threats from pro-life: https://www.politico.eu/article/abortion-debate-european-parliament-division-hatred/


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Igotadose wrote: »

    The MEP who proposed it, of course is getting death threats from pro-life:

    And they don't even see the irony in that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,138 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    The 'childfree by choice' forum is dead for some reason; as this is somewhat related to women's choices about their reproduction, I thought I'd post it here. Apologies as it's O/T, but timely: more and more adults choosing to be childfree: https://theconversation.com/far-more-adults-dont-want-children-than-previously-thought-163142



  • Registered Users Posts: 26,234 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    DubinMeath has it. Such conditions are rare but they do occur and, when they do, it's devastating. It's nearly always a heart-breaking disruption of a wanted pregnancy. Nobody having an abortion because they didn't want to be pregnant in the first place waits until the third trimester.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato



    The DUP complaining - so unlike them, I know 😜


    The Stoop Down Low Party being very quiet there but they're generally very pro-RCC

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,033 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    Anyone looking for a Repeal sweatshirt?

    There is a black one on sale on the Thrifty site, as you may know Thrifty is a site for charity shops to sell their donations online.

    "Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Or you could buy Abortion Rights Campaign or Abortion Support Network merchandise, and actually support these organisations and the important work they do.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato



     Anti-abortion campaigners must not be allowed to set up pickets outside facilities providing abortion services, the former president of the Irish College of General Practitioners has said.

    Mary Favier expressed surprise at weekend reports that the Government has dropped plans to introduce safe access zones outside maternity hospitals and clinics providing abortion services.

    Reports suggested that the Department of Health was going to rely on existing public order laws to police any protests outside maternity hospitals or GP practices with no plans to introduce safe access zones.

    However, current Minister for Health Stephen Donnelly responded to the weekend’s reports by saying officials in his department “continue to work with me to ensure safe access around medical facilities.


    Speaking on RTÉ radio’s Today show, Dr Favier said safe zones were necessary as the purpose of pickets was to intimidate patients and staff. “It has to stop.”

    Abortion is a health care issue and is part of routine health care, she said. Not everybody attending at a general practice or clinic was seeking an abortion.

    Dr Favier said she welcomed the “turn around” by the Minister as it was important to move on this issue. She said it was very unfair for protesters to be outside the National Maternity Hospital with tiny white coffins when there were women coming out who had experienced stillbirth. It was “heart breaking” for them.

    “I’m not saying that people can’t protest, they can, but in an appropriate place, not where services are being provided.”

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,138 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'abortion clinic' an invention of the writer of that article? Ireland doesn't have 'abortion clinics.' Abortion services are provided at ordinary medical facilities (GP's office, hospital). This is why there are 'existing public ordinances' that the minister is on about.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,286 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Where in the article does it mention "abortion clinic"?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,127 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    It's in the headline, presumably for reasons of concision.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,286 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    I find it best to ignore the headline and concentrate on what the article says.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato



    We have had the abortion debate in this country. The issue was examined and discussed in detail and the democratic will of the people was heard. Many were unhappy with the outcome of the referendum and they have a right to protest, appropriately, in the correct political space. What they do not have a right to do is target patients as they attend healthcare appointments.


    Obstruction and intimidation of staff and patients outside our surgeries and hospitals needs to be illegal. Picket the Dáil or the Government Offices, but not patients trying to quietly see their doctor as they navigate private life cycle health events.


    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato



    Expert to review abortion laws three years after referendum


    An independent expert is to be appointed to review Ireland’s abortion laws three years after the country voted in a landslide referendum to allow terminations in certain circumstances.

    The Termination of Pregnancy Act provides for a review of the legislation three years after its implementation.

    Sources have said they are unsure if the review process will lead to changes in the law but extensive consultations will take place in the coming weeks.

    .....

    The National Women’s Council of Ireland has said only one in 10 GPs are providing abortion services in Ireland. The council said this meant there was a significant barrier to accessing abortion at a time when just over half of maternity hospitals provide abortion services.

    The group is also calling for an extension to the 12-week limit and an end to the three-day waiting period.


    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Moderators Posts: 51,733 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Sixth-year girls in tears over anti-abortion video - Independent.ie

    A pro-life anti-abortion video was shown to a group of sixth-year students at a Catholic secondary school in Tipperary, causing some of the girls who watched it to break down in tears and sparking a major complaint to the Teaching Council.


    The video, produced by the Life Network in Dallas, Texas, was shown to students at Ursuline Secondary School in Thurles, in December 2019. A complaint made by the mother of one of the students led to a prolonged process of investigation. That ended in late June of this year with a final ruling that it did not warrant a full disciplinary inquiry.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Can't read most of the article, but it appears that after an extremely ponderous investigation, no action was taken?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,138 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    School is run by the RCC and they earn their coin by suppressing women and their reproductive rights. Nothing new here.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Still though :

    The video, seen by the Sunday Independent, contains numerous controversial claims, including that women who have abortions are at high risk of developing breast cancer, that abortion clinics harvest foetal organs to sell them to medical researchers to fight Parkinson’s disease and that the “scalp of the aborted baby can be used to correct baldness”.

    Someone tell the Sindo that "controversial" is not a synonym for "entirely fabricated".

    Baldness cures and California Cheeseburgers all round!


    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The Teaching Council is not, however, supposed to be under the thumb of the RCC...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The video [...] claims [...] that the "scalp of the aborted baby can be used to correct baldness".

    Given so many homophobic preachers turn out to be gay, I'm wondering if this could explain why so few televangelists are bald.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    BTW, I've just found out that you can edit a paragraph's properties by clicking on the little paragraph symbol to the left of the poorly-titled 'Leave a Comment' edit box at the bottom of the page. Clicking on it produces a menu with four little icons [H2, bullet, quote and paragraph], and clicking on any one of those (in the example, clicking on the quote) brings up a set of paragraph styles which, if you select one, is applied to the paragraph you're currently editing.





  • Registered Users Posts: 16,127 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf



    All the actual changes sought seem to be in the liberal direction. The anti-abortion TDs appear to focused on 'holding the line'.

    TDs on both sides stressing the need for 'an independent process', not really sure what the specific concerm is here...



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,138 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    At least the reporter didn't use 'abortion clinics' in the article. The criminal offences still on the books are for providing abortions outside what's specified by law or aiding in such, which I suppose is reasonable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The prospect of 14 years in prison if your patient isn't exactly sure when her last period was is pretty chilling.

    GPs won't touch you after 10 weeks.

    And these 10 and 12 weeks are after last menstrual period, so more like 8 or 10 weeks after fertilisation. For a lot of women, that is too short. Then throw the 3 day nonsense and the possibility of needing to travel, twice, into the mix...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    "Life and dignity group" for FFS, what a load of sanctimonious ****...

    Not much dignity in being forced to remain pregnant against your will, or being forced to undergo needless suffering while terminally ill because of nonsensical catholic dogma.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,294 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato



    The Teaching Council concluded that the video was acquired at a registered teacher training day and was therefore sanctioned by the Department of Education - once again highlighting systemic governmental failure to lessen the grip of the Catholic Church on State-funded education. 

    WT actual F!!!

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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