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What is causing the labour shortages at the moment?

  • 15-08-2021 8:46pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭


    The answer is not the PUP payment which is being phased out anyway.

    Was in a hotel and not in Dublin the staff has an average age of 15 and there still wasn't enough of them, it is the same situation with nurses, doctors, constructions workers, care workers.



Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,538 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    A substantial number of people have gone home (or to other countries where there were shorter lockdowns possibly) in the past 18 months - service industry jobs that were filled by skilled/experienced Eastern Europeans are now being filled by 18 year olds who aren't skilled/experienced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭crooked cockney villain


    Plenty of foreign construction workers moved on to a country that had a bit of cop on and didn't shut down the sites as they were such a low risk environment. Virtually all of them will have continued claiming PUP and are still on it, so are effectively banned from the state unless they fancy reimbursing 10,000 odd grand.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,891 ✭✭✭Odelay


    What country did they move to? Also, if they overclaimed PUP, it will be ducted from their pay in another European country, that is how it was explained to me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭crooked cockney villain


    Will it ****. The German, French etc tax system couldn't give a shyte about recouping Irish money. Too hard to prove, Pavel the plasterer can simply claim somebody signed up on his behalf when he moved to Denmark and withdrew cash from an Irish bank account he thought was dormant. Too much hassle to investigate that unless he was still residing here.


    As for the UK, even less so.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Its not so much staff shortages more caution re hiring or just hiring. Firstly lots of people have left Ireland for their home countries and probably unlikely to return. There's also a reluctance to re hire full compliments of staff in certain sectors due partly because business levels are still low but also serious uncertainty. Its not so much a staff shortage, businesses, particularly hospitality strategically operating with less staff and limiting service's.

    It's not often mentioned but an enormous amount of businesses are still having 75% of their payroll paid through government wage subsidy schemes, I wouldn't be surprised if unemployment will rise the minute this scheme ends.

    In addition, whilst most sectors have reopened (some have actually not) , there's enormous debt still hanging over alot of small and medium sized businesses, primarily serious rent debt and warehoused Bank /revenue debt, this is having a direct impact on re hiring or just hiring.

    I actually don't believe we've actually experienced the economic impact of the Pandemic yet, but its coming very soon and it won't be pretty.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Hotels outside Dublin are booming with staycations and its well know that there is a serious staff shortage in construction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,211 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    That's disgraceful having kids with an average age of 15 doing that kind of manual work.



    They're far better suited to making iphones from ages 12-16



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    There Certainly doing OK, I wouldn't say booming and most operating on with skelton and inexperienced staff, lots of reports of poor service, limited facilities etc (not blaming the inexperienced staff who've been thrown in at the deep end). The Irish hospitality sector, can not and won't survive on the staycation market, and most accepted the 2021 was long lost and basically ticking over in the hope international travel will fully return in 2022.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The forgien/EU workers were leaving in droves well before covid.....it wasnt worth there while staying here with rate of pay & cost of rent/living


    Hard to blame em really



  • Registered Users Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    It's not just the foreign construction workers that left, plenty of the Irish left for the UK and will be in no hurry back either.

    The money in construction has gone through the roof in the last year or two.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    This is nothing new I'm afraid, I know the industry well, normally however younger staff would compliment more experienced staff during peak and seasonal business, what's actually happening now is young staff essentially being thrown in at the deep end with no training or support.

    I know many experienced staff let go at the start of the Pandemic, have applied for various positions and most not even getting responses, the reason is quite simple a lot of hospitality businesses (not all) are trying to keep payroll costs at a minimum, test the waters etc, perhaps chancing their arms, as there is still enormous uncertainty for the immediate future.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭crooked cockney villain


    You really do wonder how it is viable for someone to come here and work in McDonald's. I may be wrong but I think the days of Poles and Lithuanians doing it are long past, the difference in wages here and home probably wouldn't justify it.

    I do even wonder how the likes of bin companies get staff. I think bin men get around the 12 to 13 mark, a site labourer would be on 18 and the work would not be entirely disimilar to being a bin man, so you would wonder why anybody would bother doing it for 6 quid an hour less.

    Getting your route done early and getting paid for the full day is the only advantage that I can see.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,211 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I was only making a reference to child labour and cheap electronic devices people use!


    It's no harm for teenagers to have a part time job in a hotel or wherever



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Airyfairy12


    Its allot of reasons but one I can speak on from personal experience of being highly educated with significant experience and struggling to find work is that employers for some reason or another are extremely picky as to who they take on and often it comes down to how well someone does in an interview over how well they can actually do the job.

    As for service roles, all require a minimum of 2 years experience working in a similar role, it used to be the case that employers would train in new staff and support them as they learn the ropes, they dont want to do this anymore and will only employ inexperienced staff who the employer knows personally or is connected to in some way.

    Employers have silly expectations of applicants and this results in unemployment and labor shortages across all sectors.

    Nepotism should be banned, employers should have to give each job applicant constructive and informative feedback outlining the job criteria and why they didnt get the job, service jobs should be banned from expecting 2+ years experience from applicants and should be supported in training in new staff.



  • Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭agoodpunt


    Wage inflation prominant in the states, many have reskilled, moved location or gone into black economy it will be transitory.

    Normalization will take 2/3 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I agree however, my point is they are not working part time, in many incidents working long hours, no training and expected in essence to carry out functions of experienced and qualified staff due to serious staff shortages.

    I fully agree and support any teenager working part time in any business, I did it myself, my point being, there's potential exploitation going on and this I don't agree with.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Posts: 6,192 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Its not anymore imo....unless younger and wanting to travel/backpack....work/party.for a few months and travel on



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,969 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Talking to a lad in horticulture recently, he'd lost 3 Eastern European lads who were with him the last few years. They were claiming the pup while working away for over a year before revenue twigged them. The boys didn't fancy paying back 20 grand each n went off to Holland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 895 ✭✭✭mondeoman72


    As someone with around 200 applications, with about 5 interviews and holding a level 6 while at 95% of a level 7 degree, I have to agree. Most do not even reply. It is disheartening to read these headlines when you know they are mainly bollix.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    The teens working is great but they needed better supervision.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Local authority bin collectors earn over €600 pw albeit not many still running these services, private contractors pay between €14 & €16 ph with drivers earning more but I get your point about other roles.

    The home care sector featured prominently last week with the industry representative claiming serious shortages despite excellent wages and seeking permission to bring in non EU applications.

    At the same time a number of carer's interviewed on a number of radio programs stating pay and conditions utterly appalling, conditions shocking and in one example despite covering clients in a 40 Mile radius go absolutely no fuel allowance, she reckoned in some situations she was earning the equivalent to €8 pH go figure 🙄, needless to say the industry rep hasn't been heard from since.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Are you really saying you can't get a job of any kind hospitality, retail, anything? I am amazed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    And this is the issue, a lot of reporting on staff shortages and yet few good applicants even getting a response or acknowledgement of an application.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Completely agree but there is no one to supervise or support.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Are your qualifications in hospitality, construction, or care work?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Airyfairy12


    Genuinely applied to hundreds of service & retail jobs from the year I left school to the year I started my postgrad 3 years ago and never got any job. I had my cv checked by employment advisors and went for interview training (not that I ever got an interview)

    My brother is a few years younger and is in the same boat as I was, he's a student and cant even get his foot in somewhere packing shelves or collecting glasses in a pub.

    Nearly all of his friends who are working got in somewhere because a relative or family friend knew a manager.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I left the hospitality industry 7 years ago, worked in it for almost 30 years and at very senior level. I've many many friends who remained in it, very experienced, a lot were let go at the start of the Pandemic. All have neither been called back, invited to apply and I can for a fact say, their employers are scraping the barrel hiring less experienced staff (some with zero experience), I have to surmise its down to wage costs. I get no satisfaction in saying this but it is sadly true.

    Also worth pointing out, the Hospitality sector with some rare exceptions let staff go rather than avail of wage subsidy schemes allowing them retain experienced staff, in essence employers dropped staff like bad habits, alot of these staff have left or gone into something new, then we had representative bodies crying and whinging about staff shortages, I'm afraid it's a bit like the boy who cried wolf.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Have you never ever had a job your dong a post-grad maybe its something to do with where you live all my nieces and nephews have jobs and never has any contacts helping them but its a busy area with lots of tourism and hotels, restaurants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    Another problem nowadays is everyone now goes to college instead of doing an apprenticeship, I think a lot of it is just a case of keeping up with the Jones.

    Look at the money a Plumber or Electrician can make in a day plus a job for life no matter what happens.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 895 ✭✭✭mondeoman72


    I even applied to multiple ads for Rosie and Jims chicken products in dublin, screaming for staff. Twice or possibly three times, not even a reply. I cannot work in retail, for personal reasons. Been there before, at the top. Looking at dumbing down my CV now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭screamer


    The pup payment is a huge factor. We have a construction company, and we’re lucky we have good staff and looked after them right throughout without any government hand outs. However, whereas last year, construction workers came off the pup and back to workplaces, they won’t do it now because it’s closed for entry, so they’ll stay on it till they’re literally booted off it. A lot also doing cash in hand jobs on the side. Foreign workers have moved, and young fellas wouldn’t work their way out of a paper bag these days, all want handy number jobs. It’s not going to change any time soon.

    As fir hospitality I’d say again similar issues with pup being too good for scratching your arse, why work for an extra 80 quid. But, it’s great to see young kids able to get summer jobs again, delighted to see them working away.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Your story all too common and sorry to hear this. Remain positive, I know easier said than done. I think it's really unfortunate that some think people are not genuinely trying to apply for jobs and essentially being ignored with the only narrative being "There's a shortage of Labour"

    Good luck regardless 😉

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Its construction, hospitality, and areas of care work, not in every sector, and yes there are genuine shortages in those areas.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Completely disagree, firstly Hospitality is not open a wet week, the RAI constantly stated 180k Hospitality staff looking forward to returning to work, at the time of that absurd statement the department of SW own stats stated 60k of pup recipients were from. Hospitality sector and I might add from. Numerous roles that had nothing to do with restaurants.

    There continues to be this ill informed notion that PUP was too generous. As of September 2020 ( yes 2020) the PUP payment was drastically reduced, not more than 12% retained the max rate of €350 pw, Most get €300, €250 or €203 pw. As of 7th September 2021, anyone on the €250 and lower rate goes onto JSA and all students returning to full time education loose it

    So just to put a little context, also. Worth pointing out there are still sectors fulling closed to include children's play centres, bowling alleys and even a lot of Pubs and restaurants have not reopened.

    Finally there is by far more people in receipt of the wage subsidy scheme, in essence government paying 75% of payroll cost for 100"s of thousands of staff, essentially PUP under a different name propping up thousands of businesses.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Retail outside of the food sector is probably dying on its feet as well.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    It is, the Pandemic speeded up the move to online shopping and customers unlikely to return to high Street. Big cities might survive but a lot of large rural towns have seen footfall plummet since restrictions ended.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users Posts: 901 ✭✭✭3d4life


    What parts of retail are you thinking of, Mariaalice ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 583 ✭✭✭crooked cockney villain


    I ventured online for nearly the first time shopping wise during Lockdown 2, the price of clothes is absolutely staggering compared to the high street. Expensive I mean. Zalondo, ASOS, I saw stuff on them I bought two years ago in the shops for 30 quid less, the popularity of these sites frankly amazes me, absolute rip off merchants. MandM direct is the only decently priced one. Pretty much the only time I buy online is when I've seen something I fancy in real life but the shop is sold out of my size.


    It will be a dark, and very expensive, day if high street shopping ever becomes a thing of the past.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,615 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    The question is why is there a labor shortage in hospitality, some care work, and construction not that there is a general labor shortage. While hospitality and care work are not well-paid, construction is very lucrative. The person who said it will take 2 to 3 years to see what is happening is correct. Another point there is a Macdonalds near me with a bit sign saying recruiting I asked my nephew how he got his job, he walked around to every hotel restaurant and cafe till he got a job starting with doing the washing up, with young people there is a hierarchy of jobs, jobs in centra or a cool cafe are going to be top of the pile while washing up in the local hotel or working in supermacs or MacDonalds not so much



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,021 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I don't equate Mac Donald's in the category of Hospitality sector and I'm not wishing to demean the perfectly good jobs they offer, I would question rates of pay, terms and conditions etc but I do take your point.

    But the original question stems in part from labour shortages in two main sectors, Hospitality and construction as these are the sectors that have been most vocal about shortages. Whilst my experience is hospitality, I've laid out some reasons but its actually also the case some businesses in this sector are infact not actually hiring or bringing back experienced and qualified staff that are actually available and have been applying, instead relying on reduced staffing levels, reduced services and hiring less experienced part time staff. Just as an example, a number of hotels are not offering leisure facilities, some have reduced menu's, changed breakfast service format, one well known hotel recently fed its customers at its sister hotel across the road and a lot have either reduced or stopped room service. I've also explained an enormous amount of very experienced staff have left the country, not all but a lot. I've further stated the hospitality sector was very poor in taking up wage support schemes allowing them in some way retain staff, instead letting staff go and are now scratching their heads wondering how did that happen.

    I don't know much about construction but I do know, more and more tradespeople are only being offered roles in a self employed capacity (contractor status), this is neither practical or viable for a lot of trades people so in a small way is perhaps affecting recruitment.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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  • Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thats a pretty good advantage. Get home midday and you have the rest of the day to yourself, having got some exercise in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I expect there's a certain amount of people who've walked away from jobs and possibly out of the market completely after re-examining their priorities.

    I mean, if your work day has consisted of both parents getting up at stupid o'clock, getting kids up and out the door to creche, getting back at five and spending an hour with the kids, rallying them to bed and then collapsing on the couch, monotonously over and over, lockdown would have been a massive shock to the system.

    You can imagine plenty of people would have spent that time thinking, "Jaysus this is hard", but also, "WTF am I doing with my life". There would be a realisation with many people that one parent could ditch work, in full or in part, and between the savings on creche and other things, they'd only be down €2k a year, which can be found by reducing spending on cars or on TV or whatever



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭growleaves


    Was recently offered €18 an hour for a Construction Labourer job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,294 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    A huge amount of it is this, there's people who were treated awfully by the hospitality sector, crap pay, conditions and hours who have now found out there's far better and more stable jobs out there. The entire hospitality industry and from the anecdotal stories ive heard especially the pubs need to wake up and start treating their staff like people.

    Although its not really surprising that the pubs are the worst offenders and are still acting like its everyone else who is in the wrong considering their absolute inability to adapt or change. Every time they are ever faced with a challenge or issues their lobbyists run to government to encircle the wagons and protect them from any consequences of being intransigent troglodytes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Airyfairy12


    Yes of course ive had jobs, I only started working properly when I completed my postgrad as it was only then that employers started taking me seriously, but even then it was a struggle.

    thats great for your nieces and nephews, unfortunately that's not how it is for all young people starting out and making that statements such as your niece and nephew didnt have that problem, undermines the issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    The trouble nowadays is the young people won't do manual labour, they would rather work in Tesco or the hospitality industry and moan and complain about getting the minimum wage.

    If they only did it for the summer they might spot some trade or some job they might be good at. but most would rather spend half their lives going to college and then can't get a job when they finish.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Dearth of cheap foreign labour, locals moving into other sectors after they realised hosptiality wages and conditions are dogshit and there's shortages in other areas. Obviously increasing wages is not an option, heaven forbid.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    In construction, my boss has an awful time getting lads.

    One fella, actually good to work wasn't bothered about going back to site legitimately, claiming pup until hes booted of and doing under the counter work for himself.

    The agencies are offering the dregs, one fella on his first day drove a telehander into materials and literally fcuked off home. Lads with bad attitudes etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    Agencies have always been the same, pay a little as they can get away it, to them it's all about the hours not what the worker is capable of.

    But it's a handy way for some young lad to get his foot in the door, There is always plenty of trades on the lookout for a good worker and they would take them from agencies.



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